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Upsetting the applecart #1 - carbon neutral biofuel
Wireless:
--- Quote from: "Eeyore" ---Maybe so, but at a local level, the v8 is still producing no less CO2 running LPG than it was, fact is it's probably usuing more due to a lower calorific value and a lower thermal effieciency in the engine. :wink:
The LPG was still pulled out the ground and still processed so I really doubt if the CO2 savings are as real as made out.
--- End quote ---
Ahem...read this http://www.fuelture.com/About-LPG/
--- Quote from: "Eeyore" ---Yes, it's a serious issue, but if you want to take it really seriously, a smaller car will burn less lpg per mile and would be even better for enviroment.
--- End quote ---
If the smaller car isn't fit for my purpose then obviously I'll use a larger car or 4x4 that is fit for purpose, whether Petrol or LPG, so your point is mute depending on my intended use for a vehicle.
--- Quote from: "Eeyore" ---And if it's an older car it's already been built. :wink:
--- End quote ---
I believe I did point out that my V8 is 11 years old.
--- Quote from: "Eeyore" ---Be carefull what you argue, there's always a smartypants about :wink:
--- End quote ---
People in glass houses shouldn't go <edit> on their own doorstep, no maybe thats not right...oh you get the gist!
--- Quote from: "Eeyore" ---But at least if we can get the arguements straight in here, we can make a better statement in the bigger world. Which has gotta be a bonus.
--- End quote ---
True...and I reckon I'm gonna win this one.
Eeyore:
Sadly the webiste opens with a big ol' wrong 'un. :(
How does burning LPG produce 60% less CO2?
What does it reduce to when it combusts? LPG is a hydrocarbon fuel, kilo for kilo its combustion byproduct in terms of CO2 isn't a great deal different from petrol. Try here
Sadly, the folk that develop powertrains will argue the 60% figure very strongly and I doubt whoever wrote the report has ever actually seen an emissions test. Personally, I beleive these guys more than an LPG promotional site.
Maybe they're talking about the complete 'carbon balance' when they talk about 60%, but if that is the case they don't make it clear. And as I've said, my dino-diesel comes ulitmately from dead plants blah blah blah. LPG is a hydrocarbon fuel, kilo for kilo its combustion byproduct in terms of CO2 isn't a great deal different.
This is our big problem. There is a lot of info floating about, but sadly, a lot of it is somewhat biased by the folks who want to look better. Just lifting info a website is fine, but it rarely, if anything, tells the whole story.
Regarding the car arguement, we could argue that a McClaren F1, or a Dodge Ram 3500 suits our need as a daily driver if we wanted to. I think the whole point with saving the enviroment is that sacrifices have to be made and lifestyles need to change. Our needs have to change otherwise alternatives to fossil fuels don't stand a chance. :wink:
This isn't about simple victories, is about making sure your arguements are watertight, and bluntly, many of the arguements put forward globally aren't. But as long as I'm making you think, I reakon that kinda puts me on top :wink: (Joking!)
If you think I'm harsh, wait till you face a real greenie :wink:
Oh, and watch they words, now. :wink:
Cheers
8)
Eeyore
rollazuki:
Lets face it, most of us run Bio/veg cos it saves money on the gas guzzling monsters we drive.
The fact that its a bit greener is a bonus.
Veg/bio produces less sulphur based emissions, and carcinogens from what Ive read, and smells so much nicer.
Thats good enough for me.
Wireless:
The reduction in CO2 emissions between petrol and LPG is one based on energy released and combustion efficiency, the burning of LPG releasing, to move the same vehicle, overall, 10 to 15% less CO2.
Many different websites claim up to 75% less CO2 is released, but I haven't quoted them, because they do not take into account the differences in comparing these alternative fuels in real vehicles designed primarily to use petrol most efficiently.
It is you that have quoted the 60% figure here, I merely draw your attention to the fact that the consensus across the majority of different sources on the web quote a figure approaching a 15% saving on CO2 emissions, in using LPG instead of petrol, after all factors are taken into account.
The 60% to 75% figures relates to mass differences in the chemical reactions, which I don't doubt might be correct, but the exothermic energy levels between these reactions is also different, and to produce the same amount of energy requires use of more LPG fuel.
From the URL you provide; obviously LPG is more efficient in combining with atmospheric oxygen within internal combustion engines, than heavier fuels, since CO is virtually absent from the exhaust gases, and the majority of emissions are CO2 and water.
I concede that the difference between the CO2 emissions of LPG & diesel are similar, although slightly in favour of LPG, but then I know which vehicle I'd rather be following behind, and which I'd rather drive.
My argument is based on the fact that whatever vehicle you wish to own as a daily driver, even if it's a McClaren F1 or Dodge Ram 3500, you'll produce an average of 15% less CO2 emissions if you run it on LPG rather than petrol, and slightly better than if you ran it on a diesel lump.
Agreed, everyone should consider a vehicle best suited to their needs, and economy is a factor. Unless government or industry produces viable alternatives that are all better for the environment, then LPG is the only solution that presents itself as a viable option to offset my carbon footprint for the vehicle I own.
I'd rather sit on the side of informed scientific consensus rather than ensuring my position is watertight, but should you produce evidence to the contrary I'll consider it on it's merits.
In the meantime, I'll follow the advice of scientists, as shown here
http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/offices/environment/guidance/vehicle.html
and continue to run my V8 on LPG.
Biodiesel-Bev:
--- Quote from: "rollazuki" ---Lets face it, most of us run Bio/veg cos it saves money on the gas guzzling monsters we drive.
The fact that its a bit greener is a bonus.
Veg/bio produces less sulphur based emissions, and carcinogens from what Ive read, and smells so much nicer.
Thats good enough for me.
--- End quote ---
You're right. :wink:
When new customers phone us enquiring about our biodiesel, one of the first questions is "How much is it a litre?" The fact that it's greener is a bonus, and that it's made from recycled used cooking oil is an even bigger bonus.
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