Smoke & Injectors

[bigfatsi]

I have been struggling to sort out the smoke on my 1989 90 2.5td (see here)

I've replaced the turbo-manifold pipe and installed new air and fuel filters. I've put through two tanks of diesel with injector cleaner yet it's still smoking  

When I went greenlaning at the weekend we covered around 220 miles and when I looked under the bonnet there was a lot of oil (or looked like oil) around one injector in particular (There is a pic in my gallery although this was taken before this weekends outing.) Could this be the cause of all the soot? My train of thought is this: Injector put back in without steel or copper washer(s) and is not fully sealing. This makes the injector sit further down in the chamber affecting spray pattern. So between the poor pattern and the lower compression this would, I assume, make this one cylinder burn poorly (but still some compression to burn a bit - hence no 'misfire') causing noise, vibration, poor fuel economy, leaky injector and lots of silky black smoke? It seems plausible to me however I'm not sure if the injector sprays into the cylinder itself or into the manifold or chamber in manifold? In which case I'm probably talking a load of cr*p!

Does this sound like a possibility or the ramblings of a guy desperate to hold onto the hope of not spending wads of cash!

I have ordered the washers in case, but is it worth changing the injectors too? I've found a set of refurbs for £88.50.  :?

Speedy reply appreciated as I would like to get it sorted before this weekend!

Cheers!

Simon.

[davidlandy]

Rather than chuck money at injector cleaner and new injectors, start saving for an early rotten disco with a good 200tdi engine in it. You will probably get one for about £500.
 
Buy an exhaust downpipe from Steve Parkers for about £120.

stick those bits into yours and you will be grinning from ear to ear with the difference its made.

Well worth it.  

[bigfatsi]

If only I had £500 to do it with!  

I will hopefully get a 200 or 300 at a later date when I can find one at the right price and then set to rebuilding it in the garage and getting it sweet as a nut. However in the meantime there's a whole lotta mud out there I wanna get in quickly and cheaply!  :D  Do you think the injectors would do this?

Simon.

[davidlandy]

the danger is if you start buying loads of bits that arent needed then you will soon get to within a shouting distance £500 wihtout too much trouble - its a landrover remember!

I dont think changing the injectors will do the trick - gut feel, seen so many people spend money unecessarily in this area. The TD engine is a fragile piece of kit and there arent many good ones out there. If the smoke isnt that bad then you may have to live with it.

ps got a complete TD engine if you want it cheap?  that too smokes but runs ok!

[bigfatsi]

ps got a complete TD engine if you want it cheap?  that too smokes but runs ok!

Hmmm. Bits. How much?!

[davidlandy]

£499

lol

make a sensible offer!

[bigfatsi]

Man I hate this bloody car.      

Just taken out the suspect injector and it has no steel washer between it and the head. The fluid coming out, however seems like engine oil and doesn't smell of diesel at all. What the hell is going on?

Grrrrrrr. AaAAaaAaaarrrrrggggghhhh.  

Simon.

[bezzabsa]

silly question - byt try and take a picture with the engine running , so we can assess the smoke
try 1 at tickover
1 at 1/2 throttle
and 1 at full throttle
there ar equite a few of us with the TD lump - so we can all give you an idea compared to our td's

[dew1911]

as Bezza says - theres a few of us here who haven´t wasted a TDi and so can possibly help. Those pictures would be great (If possible).

[bigfatsi]

Seriously man, we are talking SMOKE! The kind that hangs in the air and has people reaching for the recirculate button! I have black grass where the exhaust points at when I'm working on it! Nobody will ever rear-end me because they don't get closer than 200 yds. Even at traffic lights  :lol:

There's oil peeing out of an injector, it won't start and loses all electrics due to some dodgy wiring in the engine bay and when it does go, the trees cry. Not happy.  

An upset and emotional...


Simon.

[davidlandy]

as has been said post pics , there are many here that can advise.

and seriously if want that engine pm me with a sensible offer.

[bigfatsi]

Calmed down now.

Next to no smoke at tickover. Starts to fog on mid throttle and holy black hell on full.

Will try and take pics tomorrow but it's gonna be difficult photographing fog!!

Also a puff of smoke comes up from the turbo side of th eengine bay when I boot it.

Simon.

[dew1911]

Sounds to me (Watch someone with brains blow me out of the water) that it could be as simple as soot build up within the engine (Our rover 200 used to look like a Bond car if it hadn´t been driven hard for a while)

Only way I know to cure that is to drive like you stole it.

[davidlandy]

depends on where the exhaust is blowign but could be...

exhaust is blowing and the turbo not spooling up enough = not as much air, therefore more unburned fuel = black smoke

I think

next patient please

[bigfatsi]

Only way I know to cure that is to drive like you stole it.

That's the only way I know how to drive!  :lol:

Checked pressure inside the engine by taking off the oil filler cap and there's not even a draft/draught. Really don't think it's a nail. Man, this is winding me up!

Simon.

[bigfatsi]

depends on where the exhaust is blowign but could be...

exhaust is blowing and the turbo not spooling up enough = not as much air, therefore more unburned fuel = black smoke

I think

next patient please

Another good possibility. As is flogging it and buying an Audi!  :lol:

Only kidding before the flames start!

Will check all bolts studs as soon as there is some daylight to work on.

Simon.

[Porny]

Have you checked the rubber diaphragm in the injector pump yet??

It could be that this is stuck in, split, or badly adjusted....

Or that some one has been playing around with the pump - you could try turning the fuel down.

You could also have a stuck injector....

I've got a set of as new Injectors for a Td - only fitted for a hundred miles... then I found the real cause of my problems.  

Would happily sell these for less than £88 - at the moment they aren't doing much!!


Ian

[bigfatsi]

Have you checked the rubber diaphragm in the injector pump yet??

It could be that this is stuck in, split, or badly adjusted....

Or that some one has been playing around with the pump - you could try turning the fuel down.

You could also have a stuck injector....

I've got a set of as new Injectors for a Td - only fitted for a hundred miles... then I found the real cause of my problems.  

Would happily sell these for less than £88 - at the moment they aren't doing much!!


Ian

I checked to see if the pipe from the injection pump to the turbo was full of diesel which it wasn't. All the screws and nuts on the injector pump have been paint-marked or wire secured and look untouched.

How much for the injectors? How many threads can you see in the middle of them where the 'bottom bit' screws on. Seems quite a few on the one I took out. 6mm gap (ish)

Simon.

[TEMPL4R]

If you are getting Black smoke, you are not getting enough air. You are overfuelling.

Before you start to spend money, check the air filter, the Turbo Hoses and make sure the Turbo hasn't got damaged blades.

[bigfatsi]

Update:

Checked injectors and found that the steel washer on the bottom was missing from all of them. Replaced and found that the engine started running really rough. To the point where I was taking steep speed bumps in 2nd! :lol:

I got under the bonnet and removed the turbo intake pipe to make sure it was still spinning and could feel a regular 'blowback' through the turbo. Whipped off the rocker cover and checked the clearances. One was miles out to the point that it didn't even touch the valve. Tightened it up and I now have a new engine! Power is much better (All the guys that say the TD is underpowered should try it on 7 valves lol) and the smoke has cleared. Not entirely but to the point where it doesn't embarass me to drive it  8)

Also a new rocker cover gasket has stemmed the oil from the 'injector'.  :oops:

So thanks guys for all the help. Now I can move on to the electrics!

Simon.

[Steve ray]

hopefully with less oil flying about - the electrical string will be easier to sort!  :roll:

I've got a TD in my old 90 - it aint too bad though  :lol:

[bigfatsi]

hopefully with less oil flying about - the electrical string will be easier to sort!  :roll:

  :x  This is another ongoing problem. Firstly the fag-lighter socket would go off when you turned the lights on. Then it would refuse to crank and kill all electrics except the fag lighter. Now it appears the alternator has gone and the roof mounted spot lights don't work any more. Fun Fun Fun  8)

Simon.

[davidlandy]

earth is dodgy

renew the earth straps from the chassis to engine/body etc

[bezzabsa]

well, as far as the smoke from the turbo side of the engine- common fault is the manifold to downpipe doesnt seal 100% - mine is the same, just get some fire paste type stuff and jobs a good 'un..next job (after electrics) is give it a good service , and engine flush -and if you can change airbox to turbo pipe, also clean the airfilter housing out -as if its like mine its got more oil in it than the sump!!!!!!!

[bigfatsi]

Sitting for half an hour sorting through the dash wires and tightening dodgy earth to back of starter solenoid solved the odd electrics. Then the alternator went off. Turns out that there were no bolts attaching the bottom of the alternator to anything so a quick replacement of them, a tightening up of belt and a clean and 'wiggle' of associated cabling seems to have rectified the problem. Trouble is I'd bought a new one so will have to pay the 15% restocking charge - £8ish. (Unless someone wants a brand new LR boxed Valeo alternator for £55?)

Bezza - You're spot on with the turbo to downpipe. Bolt snapped. Quick visit to National tyres and they sorted it for nowt. Cheers Guy!

So it's now had a new diff, a new (2nd hand) N/S knuckle, full oil and filter change (with flush), replaced oil in both diffs and flushed swivels with EP90 before One-shot. New Turbo to manifold pipe, air filter and fuel filter. Fully greased nipples. Obligatory Mud-Club and 'One life...' stickers, clear lenses, Diff guards (Beauties from North offroad) and a LR badge on the grill. Well, you've got to haven't you!?

Wonder what'll go wrong tomorrow!

Cheers again fellas.

Simon.

[bezzabsa]

look its a land rover.. if you wanted sensible motoring you wouldnt be on here!!!
just think of the mechanical knowledge your wracking up!!!
glad to be of help (in a modest way)
one of a few TD owners that are happy with it!!
(did 200 miles to old sodbury last saturday - never missed a beat , didnt use any oil and also saw 78mph on the M40 sounded terrible tho' more relaxed at 55-60) having a new tank fitted saturday to replace the teabag thats pretending to be a fuel tank at the mo!