Tax Exempt?

[ed209]

If you put a 2a body on a RR chassis you loose tax exemption, agree?
So if you put a 2a body on a tax exempt RR chassis what then, both vehicles are tax exempt?

[ian_s]

if you keep the registration of the rangerover, its still tax exempt

so long as you keep enough points from either vehicle (and the chassis is 5) then you should be ok

[mark.yellow.series.3]

the vechle would retain the RR registration. due to the major componants being retained.

axles,
chassis,
engine,
gearbox,
suspention,

[ed209]

Even though the body and most of what is seen is series?
Where is this information?

[ian_s]

its on the DVLA website

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/RegisteringAVehicle/DG_10014199

[S188]

Bodywork means nothing! Its the chassis that carrys the identity.  The body isn't even on the points system!  All these land rovers you see around with series bodys on range rover chassis are eather still classed as a range rover by DVLA, a modified vehicle if they have a Q plate.  The exceptions to this are the ones built years ago when the regulations were lax.  Thats why you sometimes get something very range roverish carrying a series 1 ID.  Very handy for tax but its now ilegal to do such a conversion today and use a landy ID, it's be classed radicly modified.  That doesn't mean these vehicles are ilegal because they heve been like that for ages.  Whats less clear is how do you tell how long somethings been radicly modifield for? best ask an owner so such a motor what his V5C and MOTs say about it.

In short these days I think you'll be getting into Q plate teratory on anything thats got a wheelbase different to how that chassis was built (ie 100in for a rangie) if you play by the rules.  If you bend the rules you may get away with it, or you might get it crushed.

[ed209]

Excellent
I'll have the hybrid that's been parked in a field near mine since it was built in 1999-2000 less hassle than a Q and keep the exemption

[Rambler-Dents]

The exceptions to this are the ones built years ago when the regulations were lax.  Thats why you sometimes get something very range roverish carrying a series 1 ID. . . .
 . . . . .   That doesn't mean these vehicles are ilegal because they heve been like that for ages.

These vehicles are illegal and always have been.  The reason why they were able to be built is because it used to be easy for people to ignore the rules, which many of them did.

Under the points system the key wording with regard to the vehicle's chassis is 'original and unmodified'.  If your 'Series I' or whatever it looks like is on coil springs and masquerading as tax-exempt you are living on borrowed time.  

The DVLA are now clamping down on all this rule-bending.  If you get hauled in for inspection with a dodgy registration you will have problems.

[Paul Woodward]

I love your avatar and sig :lol:  :lol:

[Rambler-Dents]

Thanks :lol:

I've got a bee in my bonnet over that lot!  :twisted:

[Lee_D]

One to ponder.

Series with Coils added. Axles swapped but everything else the same.

The Chassis is the same, only the spring mounts added for the new springs which surely count as part of the change of suspension points wise.

Discuss.  :)

[electricbluebadger]

Original and unmodified..... key wording

So chassis - no points as modified to suit coils
Axles - no points
Brakes - discs?? no points
Suspension - no points

Tax exempt... not a hope

Cheers Steve

[Canada Al]

This is a mine field . " Original and unmodified " . so what happens when you modify engine mountains Etc (part of the chassis no ? ) . What about parabolics or disk brakes . I know all these thing seperatly are not enough but what if I have a SII v8 on paras and disks .
What about replacment parts , say over twenty years I have replaced with new ( not salvaged from another registerd vehicle ) the chassis ,axles , suspension even engine ?

[Rich_P]

What about replacment parts , say over twenty years I have replaced with new ( not salvaged from another registerd vehicle ) the chassis ,axles , suspension even engine ?

Like for like components are not considered as 'changes'.

[Stephen Leckie]

You need 8 points.
2 for each of suspension, steering,axles, transmission. 1 for engine, 5 for chassis. All original, unmodified, or as per original manufacturers specification. ie you can replace the chassis with a galvanised one. You can replace the steering, or the axles, so long as "original spec"etc. Brakes and body don't count. BUT, a completely different body, even with 8 points on the vehicle, needs an SVA. Not good. Been there. Most Landrovers will not pass this without many tears, fettling, cost, hassle,retests,protractors,measuring,etc etc. Not a minefield when the police and DVLA are involved. Crystal clear in fact. Read the DVLA website. Sorry.

[electricbluebadger]

A completely different body in the case of a landrover DOES NOT need an SVA, on a landy you have a seperate ladder chassis, the body counts for 0 points and you can remove it all should you wish..no issues. this is how home built specials can legally retain tax exemption.

Cheers Steve

[Canada Al]

so if I replace the chassis with a donor chassis ( from the bitsa in the yard ) grind of the chassis number if I can find it , do the same with the axles etc , then I have a "ringer" . But how do they prove it ?

[electricbluebadger]

They dont need to, If its questioned you have to prove its genuine...they have you by the short n curlies on this...fraid thats how it works :(

Cheers Steve

[Canada Al]

Good job I would'nt do anything like that then ........Any body what to buy a Sii with a .............

[steve_h]

Original and unmodified..... key wording

So chassis - no points as modified to suit coils

Not quite! Original and unmodified refers to the main chassis members between the axles IIRC. It matters not what you do with mounting brackets, including engine and suspension mounts as long as the main chassis rails aren't modded and the welding is up to scratch. If you took your original series chassis and welded coil spring mounts etc to it, you still keep the five points for the chassis and only loose those associated with suspension type and axles.

With regard to bodies, it depends on type approval. the series and defender body is already type approved , as is the range rover and disco. Swapping a series body lengthened or shortened at the back as required onto a range rover chassis shouldn't require and SVA as long as you don't modify anything from the front end to the rear of the cab.

What does flag up as an SVA is if the chassis (main rails) has been altered between the axles. If you take a 110 defender and chop it to 100" then you'll need an SVA even though its +100% the original car, but with 10" missing from the middle - mad :x

Steve.

[Rambler-Dents]

Steve, that's not right.  Original and unmodified is just that.  These DVLA proposals are causing havoc in hot-rodding circles.  If the regulations are interpreted as worded - something that the VOSA inspectors are likely to do - then something as obvious as different spring mountings will cause you all sorts of problems.  The wise people amongst us are now playing by the rules when it comes to modifying.  Even to the extent of keeping original engine mountings and working off those to adapt a different engine.  The full weight of all this hasn't been felt yet, so things don't look or feel too bad.  Days are numbered though.  

I happen to know that the Land Rover scene is receiving a lot of attention from the authorities, but not as much as the hot-rodding scene.  Things over there are very nervous at the moment.  

It may be worth noting that the reason why people have been getting away with these modifications for years is that it was difficult for the DVLA to keep an eye on what was going on.  Now things are changing.  New inspectors are being trained and procedures are now being standardized across the board.  Gone are the days of lenient local VROs.

All these changes are intended to counter vehicle crime, but it's just unfortunate that the vehicle modifiers are getting caught up in it.

At this moment in time I would interpret the regulations as-worded.  If the latest DVLA proposals are implemented in full, then it's going to be disastrous for a lot of people.  A lot of work is being done behind the scenes by various organizations (mostly hot-rodding related) to counter the DVLA proposals, but the current situation is that a response from them is being awaited.

Mike

[datalas]

I believe the caveat is that they tend to play the game of interpreting what is, or what isn't a "radical modification".  An engine mount is potentially not considered a "radical" modification, if only because there are numerous different ones welded to the chassis (or in some cases bolted to it) by the manufacturers,  and,  if we were honest it failing would probably cause you to stop fairly quickly, but it might not be all that dangerous.

I would imagine they'd view moving, replacing, re-engineering the suspension mounts in a different light.  Well, perhaps not moving them, but certainly [1] re-engineering them.

basically, if the intention is to circumvent the taxation laws, well, we all know ways of doing that, but if you try claiming that a tax exempt discovery [2] was perfectly legal after you've just run down a bus load of nuns, I think you might be bang out of luck :)


[1] that originally came out as cretinly, which wasn't the intended statement, but as typos go it was at least semi humourous.

[2] I have seen one,  no, it wasn't a range rover, it was a 1968 discovery, now I don't think any amount of "incremental" upgrades quite makes it a series 2.

[Rambler-Dents]

Datalas, the scenario you describe is the 'old' way, and based on half-hearted interpretations and local 'customs'.  It is no longer wise to base predictions on belief or imagination.  Game-playing and leniency is not part of the new proposals.  

What I am trying to get across is that this is all going to end.  The severity in which it ends all depends on how much the DVLA will compromise with their proposals as a result of all the counter-proposals from the modified car organizations fighting it all.

The fact that a lot of the proposals are a complete and utter nonsense when taken as-worded doesn't matter a damn to the authorities.  All they will be concerned with is that they have some rules there that they can apply.  The more literal they are the easier it will be for them.

Mike

[datalas]

I was half heartedly agreeing, in my own verbose and around the houses kinda way.

the only real trouble comes when you do *something* that requires modification to the chassis,  the issue is, was, and I guess always will be what that actually entails.   For example if you stick a range rover axle on an early 90 you can either modify the axle to take the shock mount on the other side, or the chassis to ...

which is safest?  a valid question,  which does VOSA think is safest .. probably a different question :D

[Rambler-Dents]

Hello  :D

Unfortunately the only safe way is to aviod any chassis modifications at all.  There are obviously things that you could do that would look standard and not attract any attention, such as shock mounts in a different position etc.  Then there are things like axles that can be changed but still look standard (speaking generally - not just with Land Rovers).  At the moment, until the proposals are implemented in full, it's a good idea not to go too far down any particular route of modification that will leave you at the mercy of the inspectors.

One of the favourite things for them to look out for on Land Rovers is the coil-sprung suspension on a pre-coil sprung age registration.  I think the biggest trouble is going to come when these people are given free reign to be clever and pick fault with people's cars.  Anything that looks modified is going to attract attention.  You can bet your life that there will be lots of Little Hilter busy-bodies trying to be clever picking fault with cars.  

The most ridiculous part of all this is, as you refer to, the safety situation.  You can build yourself a dangerous car by changing things to avoid modifying the chassis and too many components, therefore avoiding trouble with the regulations.  Or you could do it properly, upgrading drivetrain, steering and suspension, then end up with a Q-plate or worse.

It is intended for MOT testers to be instructed to look out for undelcared changes to a vehicle at MOT time, so we've got that to look forward to as well.

Mike

[Fuddy as muck]

With these new proposals, would it lose points if you changed your 2a front end and dash for a series 3

Darren

[Rambler-Dents]

The body doesn't count because it is separate from the chassis, so you are okay there.

Mike

:D

[S188]

I do know someone whos on the reciving end of this legislation and is trying to own a legal vehicle but is finding it dificult.

His problem is he has a series 2 that over the years has become radicly modified.  He now wants to get it onto a Q plate as that means he'll be able to do what he likes to it without anyone moaning about specs and he is now bothered about its current tax exemption, he wouldnt mind paying tax on it as is so is not trying to dodge that.  For some resion however the althoritys are not keen on him regegistering a 'ligitimate' vehicle as a Q.

Like many of these 88 coilers his was built in the 80s/90s when series motors and rangerovers were redally avalable as old cheep vehicles and building a SWB coiler was much cheeper than buying one of those new LR90's.  Times have moved on and I must admit I find it why people still want to do such radical mods to still make series coilers when genuine coilers of vereous wheel bases are avalable for little money.  If you think a 90 for 3 grand is still expencive then think about the total cost of a rebuild project - unless you have loads of vehicles cheep for breaking with good parts and lots of personal welding skills you wouldn't be able to make a radicly modified motor cheeper, and if you could you'd probubly have no problem fixing up a nackered 90 cheeply eather!

As for whats radicly modifield on a chassis that is a grey area I guess.  Personly I'd say the basic structure shoudln't be changed including the main shape and suspension mounts.  Changing an engine mount I wouldn't think was a big deal, nor would changine some outriggers for a different body though altering the rear crossmember could be argued as part of the main chassis structure (I mean like puting a landy crossmember on a rangie).  Of course thats my personal view of how it should be which probubly means [!Expletive Deleted!].  A point though, if you have a zero tolarance polocy on ANY chassis mods then wouldn't that mean all modified coach built vehicles like cherry picker vans and tipper bodys built on a chassis cab should then be Q plated as specal body mounts have been fitted to the hamologated structure, meaning it still functions as intended in the normal stresses of life but is not identical to whats made by the manufacturer.  These vehicles of course are still manufacturered by profesonal companys useing the original manufacurers vehicle spec (ie still says it on the V5C) without problem so I'd have thought they would still comply.

On another sidenote someone once told me, land rover 127's were aparently made by the factory on modified 110 chassis (done by LR Specal Vehicles) and say LR110 on the logbook.  Is this true and if so what does that mean for them?  How could you spot a factory made 127 to a home made streched 110?  The 130's were made as 130s as a model in their own right.

[Bob Ajob]

Carrying on the sidenote, seen something in a mag recently (either LRO or LRE) regarding the 127. The 127 was indeed made by Special vehicles from a 110, until at some point it got it's own chassis made. A 130 is still a 127 wheelbase, they just called it a 130 to bring in line a snazzier name to the Defender range.

Hijack over.

[Rambler-Dents]

The counter-proposals to the DVLA from the involved car organizations are concerned with what actually constitutes a vehicle's identity and more to the point, when it actually loses that identity.

Putting aside the major components and the points system, the ridiculous nature of the regulations effectively say that unless the chassis is left original and unmodified then the vehicle is deemed radically altered and ceases to be worthy of its original identity.  This is quite obviously complete and utter nonsense, so lots of people have their fingers crossed that the DVLA will make concessions for modified cars.  If it doesn't listen, then it'll be responsible for wiping out a £2billion per year industry in this country, not to mention a way of life for a lot of people.