AuthorTopic: Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??  (Read 10403 times)

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Offline Tailendcharley

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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2006, 13:49:28 »
:D  :D Blimey, I've carried my Swiss Navy knife around for the last 18 years and I must use one or other of the blades every single day but the machette I have in the boot is another matter...now that's what I call a real knife :wink:  :wink:

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Offline TechnoTurkey

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« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2006, 15:29:20 »
Good bit of relevant case law:

HARRIS v DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS:FEHMI v DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS (1992)

Folding knife with a lock - offensive weapon?

A folding knife having a pointed blade of less than three inches and capable of being secured in an open position by a locking device was not a "folding pocketknife" within the meaning of s.193(2) Criminal Justice Act 1988, and carrying it in a public place was therefore an offence. To be a folding pocket knife, the blade must be readily foldable simply by the folding process. The knife was not in that category because it required the pressing of a button to lock and unlock it.



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Offline Terminus

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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2006, 17:07:12 »
Quote from: "Jonboy"
Bladed items etc:- 139 Offence of having article with blade or point in public place.  Applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.  

So if your leatherman is less than 3 inch blade then it is legal.


That only applies to folding knives - knives with lockable blades are illegal regardless of length.

This applies to being a public place though. (which is why they are still legal to buy)
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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2006, 23:50:41 »
Sorry but I need my locking knife. ok it's dead on 3" but thats bearly enough. As for locking, It must be! The plain sprung held ones are dangerous to the user.  I've had my fingers trapped enough times and it's bloody painfull. I also have to keep it in my Jeep so when i'm going across the fields to get the job or my tractor I need to cut string off gates ect. They can confiscate it if they like i'll just go get another! Every time a new peice of ill conceived law like this comes out I get little bit closer to packing up and leaving this country. Anyway rant over :oops:  i'm gonna go take a vallium an have a nice cup of tea :?  :)

Offline Jim-Willy

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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2006, 00:04:04 »
I carry an assortment of tools in the back of the 90 including a mega sharp boker sheath knife, i also have a swiss army knife and a lock knife, they are neccesary thers is nowt worse than needing a proper sharp blade and not having one.
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Offline jaws

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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2006, 00:11:25 »
yeah look at the great big axe tyke has in the back of his motor!
if only i was as intelligent as i look!
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Offline Lee_D

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« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2006, 00:11:27 »
Ok ok ,

If you carry a locking knife IN PUBLIC you have to be able to justify that possesion. Examples such as gutting Rabbits WHEN I go hunting aren't a  suitable reason... IF you are on your way hunting or on your way back the COURT may (not will) afford you this defence.

Other examples, A joiner with a Knife in his arse pocket whilst sat in the pub on the way home UNLAWFUL even if no intent to do harm or otherwise. It's the POSSESION that is unlawful.

Now that aside.

Pointed and Bladed articles is a different bag of spanners altogether, (forget knives for a moment)... think Friday night on the town. Outside the pub i the beer garden with a glass ... no problem... smash it to do someones face some damage... POINTED or Bladed articles kicks in. Now think Screwdrivers, Stanley knife blade taped to a toothbrush, you get my drift (Bladed but not overed by off weapon legislation hence the new offences of POINTED and BLADED articles in addition to Offensive weapons (Which cover your knives of 3 inches and greater, lock knives , Gravity knives, butterfly etc etc etc...

There is no contradiction, simply that both bits of legislation are designed to cover different situations. Thankfully most bobbies / CPS / Courts will apply common sense however if you happen to be in the local "hood" and get nicked then as they say "You pay your money , you take your chance"

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Offline Terminus

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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2006, 02:21:12 »
Quote from: "Jonboy"
The're making it up as they go along. If it was in its holder then it is not an offensive weapon and, if it was strapped to your belt then it wasn't a conceled weapon. The law only applies to locking blades that are gravity opened or spring opening i.e. flick knife.


No they're not the legislation relating to offensive weapons and bladed articles isn't really all that new and it applies to the possesion of a bladed article (except a pocket knife which is not exceeding 3 inches) or any blade which locks - when in a public place - now technically if it's in your car for use in fishing, farmers or mountaineering or other such activities (genuine cases) then you shouldn't fall foul of the law.

Carrying such an item around in public is an offence.

As for the above comments on it being strapped to your belt etc or in its holder - not correct I'm afraid - there is a legal defence to having such an item (e.g a stanley knife) which is that it is for bona fide purposes in relation to your work, e.g a carpet fitter wouldn't get charged or the knife confiscated if he was carrying one within his working hours

But if it was outwith working hours and he was carrying it he commits an offence.

Couple of quick definitions for you:

Section 49(1) Criminal Law Consolidation (scotland) Act 1995 states-

It is an offence to have in public place a bladed or sharply pointed article.

(Law in England and Wales follows the same drift)

A bladed article is any article having a blade, however a folding pocket knife with a cutting edge not exceeding 3 inches is exempt.... if the knife, although capable of being folded into its handle, locks in the open position, it is not a folding pocket knife and is therefore not exempt.

Section 47 covers offensive weapons and states

Any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, the proof whereof shall lie on him, has with him in a public place, ANY offensive weapon commits an offense.

The reasonable excuse being like the carpenter example above and it is up to you to prove this.
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Offline Moneypit

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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2006, 11:50:56 »
So having a knife/bladed implement, longer than 3 inches if folding, with no justifiable excusein a public place is an offence.

Having the above in a private place is not an offence, which is why we are allowed to buy them.

Am I right so far?

Questions:

1.   How do you get it home from the shop?
2.   Is your vehicle classed as a private place?  It is privately owned and the general public does not have the right to access it without express permission.

First answer I presume the justification is I have just bought it and am taking it home.

The second one is relevant as I carry both a hand axe and a machete in Moneypit.  Both at the bottom of the side bins with lot's of stuff on top of them, for camping (chopping firewood etc) or clearing bushes away etc.

If needs be I shall have to remove them and then remember to put them in each time I am going to do something relevant, except of course the time that I realy need them when they will be sat on top of the wardrobe in my bedroom!
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Offline Lee_D

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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2006, 12:01:51 »
Quote from: "Moneypit"
Am I right so far?

Pretty much

Quote from: "Moneypit"

Questions:

1.   How do you get it home from the shop?
2.   Is your vehicle classed as a private place?  It is privately owned and the general public does not have the right to access it without express permission.

First answer I presume the justification is I have just bought it and am taking it home.

The second one is relevant as I carry both a hand axe and a machete in Moneypit.  Both at the bottom of the side bins with lot's of stuff on top of them, for camping (chopping firewood etc) or clearing bushes away etc.

If needs be I shall have to remove them and then remember to put them in each time I am going to do something relevant, except of course the time that I realy need them when they will be sat on top of the wardrobe in my bedroom!


Bingo!  :)

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Offline mike tilley

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« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2006, 18:03:45 »
Taken from here http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8336

_______________________

Frequently Asked Questions:

Q: How old do must I be to buy a knife?
A: 18 years or over!

Q: What is a lock knife?
A: A knife with a lock!

Q: My knife locks, is it a lock knife?
A: Yes!

Q: Is a Leatherman Wave a lock knife?
A: Yes!

Q: Is an Opinel a lock knife?
A: Yes!

Q: I dont always use the locking ring on my Opinel. If the ring is not engaged, is it still classified as a lock knife?
A: Yes!

Q: Is a Swiss Army Knife (SAK) a lock knife?
A: Some models are, many are not. If it has a lock, it's a lock knife, if it doesn't, it isn't!

Q: What is the legal definition of a lock knife?
A: A Crown Court case (Harris v DPP), saw an entheusiastic lawyer convincing a judge that a lock knife was eqivalent to a fixed blade knife when the lock was engaged. Even though it has not been defined in a parliamentary act, it has never been overturned or superceeded and so is effective law (case law). A lock knife for all legal purposes, is the same as a fixed blade knife. A folding pocket knife must be readily foldable at all times. If it has a mechanism that prevents folding, it's a lock knife (or for legal purposes, a fixed blade)!

In theory, case law can be overturned by a more senior judge or court. The Harris ruling has been tested in a more senior court, namely the Court of Appeal - the highest court in the UK before parliament. The case of REGINA - v - DESMOND GARCIA DEEGAN, Court of Appeal 1998, upheld the Harris ruling stating that "folding was held to mean non-locking". No leave to appeal was granted. This is significant, since the Harris ruling was upheld in the Court of Appeal by Deegan, ALL COURTS MUST now adhere to the ruling. Following the Deegan deecision, the only way the Harris ruling can be overturned is through a parliamentary act.

Q: Are lock knives illegal to own?
A: No! You can quite legally buy, make, sell, import or gift a lock knife. It is perfectly legal to own and use a lock kinfe on your own property, or on private property where you have the landowners permission. It is, however, ILLEGAL to carry a lock knife in a public place, unless you have a good reason to do so.

Q: Are fixed blade knives illegal to own?
A: No!

Q: Are kitchen knives illegal to own?
A: No!

Q: Can I carry a lock knife (or a fixed blade knife) in a public place just because I feel like it?
A: No, it is ILLEGAL to carry a lock knife in a public place without a good reason.

Q: Can I carry a lock knife in a public place if I have a good reason?
A: Yes.

Q: Can I carry a fixed blade (sheath) knife in a public place if I have a good reason?
A: Yes.

Q: What constitutes a reasonable reason?

A: According to section 139, subsections 4&5 of the 1988 Criminal justice Act....

    (4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.
    (5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—

       1. for use at work;
       2. for religious reasons; or
       3. as part of any national costume.

Q: Are there any other reasonable reasons?
A: Yes. What constitutes a reasonable reason is a matter for common sense, the police and the courts. There is no exhaustable list defined in law. If you think you have a reasonable reason and a police officer disagrees, it'll be up to the courts to decide your fate.


Q: I have an allotment and it's time to cut my cabbages. Can I legally take a fixed blade knife to my allotment to cut my cabbages?
A: That would seem reasonable to me, but there is no written rule. The final word is a matter of magistrate opinion.

Q: I am an odd job man and occasionally have to strip 13amp wires for plugs. Can I carry my 10inch custom Bowie for this eventuality?
A: That would NOT seem reasonable to me, but there is no written rule. The final word is a matter of magistrate opinion.

Q: I am a devout Sikh and am required by my religion to carry a traditional knife or kirpan, can I carry one in a public place?
A: Yes.

Q: I am Scottish by birth, can I carry a dagger or Skein Dubh in my sock as part of my Highland dress?
A: Yes.

Q: I proclaimed myself a Jedi Knight for the last census, can I carry a light sabre?
A: Sadly, no. Although many tens of thousands cited Jedi as thier religion, it is not officially recognised in law.

Q: Is "self defence" a reasonable reason?
A: Absolutely not! If you are carrying a knife for self defence, by definition you are carrying the knife as a weapon. Not only are you guilty of carrying a bladed article, contrary to s139 of the 1988 Criminal Justice Act, but you are also guilty of the more serious offence of carrying an offensive weapon.

Q: What is the penalty for carrying a lock knife in public, without a reasonable reason?
A: According to section 139, subsections 6 (a) & (b) of the 1988 Criminal Justice Act:

    (6) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be liable

       1. on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;
       2. on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or a fine, or both.

Q: What constitutes a public place?
A: Section 139, subsection 7 of the 1988 Criminal Justice Act, defines it as:

    (7) In this section “public place” includes any place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted access, whether on payment or otherwise.

Q: Can I keep a locking knife in the glove compartment of my car, just because I feel like it?
A: No! Your car is defined by law as a public place. There is no legal difference (for the purpose discussed here) between your car and the pavement outside your local cinema. A car is not a piece of land and is therefore not private property uinless it's parked on private property. Think of it as luggage. Think of a parked car as left luggage.

Q: Are there any knives I can carry in public in the UK, just because I feel like it?
A: Yes.

Q: What kind of knife can I carry in a public place without a reasonable reason?
A: The knife must have a cutting edge of no more than 3 inches and must not have a lock of any kind.

    For a knife to be a folding pocket-knife within the meaning of this section, it must be readily and immediately foldable at all times, simply by the folding process. A lock-knife, which required a further process, namely activating a trigger mechanism to fold the blade back into the handle, was held not to be a folding pocket-knife (Harris v DPP [1993] 1 All ER 562); followed in R v Deegan [1998] Crim LR 562,[1998] 2 Cr App Rep 121. The section applies to articles which have a blade or are sharply pointed, falling into the same broad category as a knife or sharply pointed instrument;

Q: Can you give me some examples of a legal folding knife to carry without the need for a reasonable reason?
A: The Spyderco Pride, the Spyderco UK Penknife, any old timer type slipjoint with less than 3" blades, many Swiss Army Knife models and Laguiole slip joints, to name a few.

Q: I keep hearing about "slip joints" what are they?
A: A slip joint is a folding knife where the blade is does not lock in the open position, but rather a spring keeps the blade open for some safety. It can be closed without the need to operate any device or lock mechanism. Think of the Swiss Army Knife basic design, the blade opens by pulling it open and it closes simply by folding it. A slip joint with less than a 3" blade is legal carry in the UK.

Q: I heard that "combat knives" are illegal to own, is this true?
A: No. The Knives Act 1997, made it illegal to market or sell a knife as a combat knife, but it is not illegal to own or buy one.

Q: Are flick knives illegal to buy?
A: Yes. Flick knives, automatics or switchblades are on the "banned items list".

Q: Is there any way at all I can legally acquire a flick knife?
A: No. They are completely illegal to buy, sell, make, construct, pawn, gift, auction, import or otherwise acquire in any way.

Q: So flick knives are illegal to own then?
A: No. You can legally own a flick knife in your own home, providing it was in your posession before the 1959 Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act, came into effect.

Q: Are swords illegal to own?
A: No, swords are perfectly legal to own in your own home.

Q: Are swords illegal to carry in public?
A: Yes, unless it's part of a national costume, or for religious purposes or for a re-enactment event or some other reasonable purpose.

Q: So what items are on this "banned items" list?.
A: Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 and the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988 makes it an offence to manufacture, sell or hire or offer for sale or hire, or expose or have in possession for the purpose of sale or hire or lend or give to any person any of the following weapons [7]:

    * Balisong or butterfly knife
    * Knuckleduster
    * Telescopic truncheon
    * Push dagger
    * Shuriken, shaken, or death star
    * Handclaw
    * Footclaw
    * Manrikgusari or kusari (rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at each end to a hard weight or hand grip)
    * Swordstick
    * Hollow kubotan (cylindrical container containing a number of sharp spikes)
    * Blowpipe or blowgun
    * Kusari gama (rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a sickle)
    * Kyoketsu shoge (rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a hooked knife)
    * Belt buckle knife
    * Disguised knife (added to the list by the 2002 amendment)
    * Stealth knife (added to the list by the 2004 amendment)

Note: This Order specifies descriptions of weapons to which section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies. Antique weapons, which are defined as weapons over 100 years old at the time of an alleged offence, are excluded.

Q: Is it true that if a knife is too sharp, that can make it illegal?
A: No.

Q: Can my Swiss Army Knife ever be considered an offensive weapon?
A: Yes, absolutely it can. Anything can be an offensive weapon if you either use it as one, or intend to use it as one.

________________________

Makes interesting reading...
Mike Tilley

Ex Landrover owner
1996 Toyota Hi-Lux Surf 3.0lt

http://www.maninhat.myzen.co.uk/

Offline dreadnought110

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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2006, 07:42:24 »
:? It worries me that you can get done for having them in the car I mean I sometimes use my vehicle for work so i aways keep a couple of knives wire strippers etc etc.. so does this mean if i get stopped i have to justify the reason for them being there? :? according to the previous posting yes??
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Offline Bulli

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« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2006, 08:55:58 »
once more i despair over this country. Next people will have to get permission in wrinting from the constabulary to use the bathroom.
I dont think knives should be carried unless for sensible reasons but i think the inclusion of cars as public space is a joke. I will carry on using my leatherman juice then as i do use it for work and its legal anyway.

Anyone fancy starting a 4x4 based religion which allows you to cary knives, and allows you to SPEED for religious reasons...maybe we could prohibit devout fourbyfouriuns  from paying fines as well :wink:
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Offline dreadnought110

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« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2006, 09:17:52 »
Quote from: "Bulli"
Anyone fancy starting a 4x4 based religion which allows you to cary knives, and allows you to SPEED for religious reasons...maybe we could prohibit devout fourbyfouriuns  from paying fines as well :wink:
Nice idea do you think it would work??? :wink:  :wink:
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Offline UKJeeper

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« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2006, 22:15:23 »
I have both a Leatherman (Wave + extra tools) and a Victorinox (Champ) strapped to my belt and have done for the last 15 years. Never had a problem when i lived in the US, and never had one here either (4 years now). I have asked several members of the police and they have said:

1) If the blades less than 3"

2) You have a (work type) reason for carrying it

3) You're not stupid enough to stick it in people

They couldn't give a stuff.

I have commuted through, and worked in, several highly policed area's (Liverpool Street station, Gatwick, Stanstead, etc) with the words Leatherman and Victorinox visible on my person without hoardes of HK toting plod jumping me.  They generally know the difference between somebody like me, who uses my multitools (i hate when they are called "knives". Between them they have about 30 bazillion functions, only 2 of which are "knives"), and some dickhead who runs around with a rambo knife looking to be the next sweeney todd.

To be honest, would anyone EVER want to get into a fight and have to rely on his 3" pocket knife? Unless you know exactly where to stick it and have the opportuninity to reach said target, the other guy is going to knock the crap out of you. It'd be like getting into a gun fight with a frigging air pistol, [Edited]!

Most of the time my Victorinox blades couldn't cut through melted butter, they are always blunt. I only use the screwdrivers and pliers 95% of the time anyway.

Offline Moneypit

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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2006, 09:49:23 »
If a vehicle is considered a public place, no different to the pavement outside your local cinema, how is it possible to steal something from a car?  Surely you have just found it and picked it up.

If I see a tenner on the pavement outside the cinema and pick it up I have found it.

If I see a tenner on a seat inside an unlocked car, open the door and pick it up have I found it or have I stolen it?  Afterall the car is a public place!!

Also why do the police have to have reasonable cause to search your car but not look in rubbish bins.

Defining a car as a public place is at odds to the description given

Q: What constitutes a public place?
A: Section 139, subsection 7 of the 1988 Criminal Justice Act, defines it as:

(7) In this section “public place” includes any place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted access, whether on payment or otherwise.


The public does not have access to my vehicle.
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Offline SixPot

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« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2006, 15:16:05 »
My parents had a strange one a few years back when looking outside they saw a bloke sitting inside their car. So they phoned the police who kindly pointed out it was not an offence to sit in the car even if it wasn't their's and didn't have permission. So long as the bloke hadn't done any damage getting into it there was nothing they could do. Very helpful of them - not.

In the end it turned out that  sitting in the car was all the chap did. He was a bit worse for wear on the way home from the pub and took a nap in the first shelter he could find. :?
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Offline Terminus

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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2006, 03:18:33 »
if you found a tenner and kept it you would commit the crime of theft by finding. after all you wouldn't keep a credit card. so as with if it was in the car it would still be theft. someone summed it up well earlier using the comparison with luggage basically your car is a possession which you leave in a public place it is not a private place. if it was you would then be able to take a big box out and when confronted step inside and say hey this is a private place - which would just be silly :lol:
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Offline Moneypit

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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2006, 09:48:36 »
Quote from: "Terminus"
if it was you would then be able to take a big box out and when confronted step inside and say hey this is a private place - which would just be silly :lol:


As any small child will tell you a big box isn't a private place, it's a Rocket ship or a car or a bus or an aeroplane or a submarine or a transmogrifier :lol:

You wouldn't keep a credit card, but then you know that it is the property of the bank/issuer.

I can understand most of the rationale behind all this and I suspect this is one of those occassions where you hope that common sense will prevail.

The items I carry in my Disco are there for use when I need them.  They are not easily accessible and are out of sight.  Do I need to carry them all the time?  Probably not, but then I don't need to carry a sleeping bag, duck tape tow rope etc, but they are part of my emergency kit, which is permanently in the back of any car I owned.

I will try to remember to take them out and hope that I don't need them when they are on top of the Wardrobe.

I am suprised by the fact that an Opinal is considered illegal, the reason I bought one was because it had the manual lock and was therefore safer than a folding knife.  But we live and learn.
Sometimes you need to get away from the crowd, the only way to do that, is to get a little mud on the tyres.

Offline Terminus

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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2006, 16:12:52 »
The problem (as is usually the case) has arisen from the few headcases or idiots that carry knives for a variety of purposes none of which are functional .. i.e sticking into you when you for some odd reason don't appear happy to hand over your wallet.

The problem with locking blades even those with short blades is that when thrust at human flesh there is no folding resistance and it has a tendancy to go right in to the maximum depth of the blade (which I'm sure we would all rather do without) whereas a knife that does not lock will tend to fold slightly under pressure and not achieve this rather gruesome feat and with a bit of luck close on the aggressors hand  :shock:  :lol:

Basically in a struggle you have a chance with a folding blade (don't try this at home) but with a locked blade it will not give and cut wherever it is thrust.

So although some people will be unhappy with this element of the law it is a safegaurd - because lets face it  - the knife culture is here and way too many young idiots are wandering around with one concealed on them.

If they ever invent a law that absolutely everyone is happy with I'll be shocked   :shock:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Way back then - life crawled out of the mud, then it decided life was better and crawled back in!

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Offline Moneypit

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Locking blade leatherman etc...illegal??
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2006, 16:19:02 »
I bought my first opinal because I didn't want my knife to close on my fingers when trying to whittle tent pegs so I guess it's time to put my opinal away and get one of the British Army Knives with a thing for getting scouts out of horses hooves.

The anoying thing was I gave my old one to my brother who's a policeman and bought the Opinal, which I have alway prefered and use for everything from sharpening pencils to opening tin cans.
Sometimes you need to get away from the crowd, the only way to do that, is to get a little mud on the tyres.

 






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