Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Defender => Topic started by: Matt_H on November 25, 2006, 14:21:29
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as ususual I seem to be replacing everything in my quest to find out why I'm getting steering wobble. It's an odd one, not sop much a out of balance wheel wobble but more side to side of the steering, it can happen from upwards of 40 mph, however very occasionally a bump will kick it off.
The last thing I can think of is the steering box so am after some opinions.
The story so far:
I don't think it's the wheels or tyres as I've swapped my tyres with someone else and the wobble stayed with my 90 and his was still fine. In fact I've actually tried 3 sets of wheels and tyres just to make sure. (they are probably ever so slightly out of balance anyway but not enough to wobble the other 90)
I dropped the front prop out completly as sometimes when they go stiff seem to cause wobbles, no change.
The radius arm bushes were replaced by the local land rover place safari engineering some 4-5 months ago. (the wobble has acutally apepared after that)
The panhard bushes were replaced 6 months ago, as the steering wobble got worse I noticed last weekend that the bushes were shot.. I can only think that the wobble has caused the bushes to go rather than the bushes causing the wobble.. Just replaced those with some polly bushes and 70% has gone but there is still more wobble than a 'normal land rover'
Now the steering was comented on at the MOT for being a bit loose. It appears as thoguh the box is warn internally as you can turn the steering wheel (based on a clock face) 2-3 hours before the drop arm starts to move at all.
Is this the most likely cause of the wobble? I see paddocks have boxes for £200, then it sayus includes £100 exchange, does that mena it's basically £100 when you return the other one?
Thanks
Matthew
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Can compare it to mine if you want, I used to have loads of problems, and have replaced the bushes etc like you.
Have you looked at the Swivel pins? that made a big difference to mine, and so did the actual tyres, with Steel and mud tyres it still isn't the most stable of machines, but seems fine with the Alloys and AT tyres on.
Mine has just passed the MOT with no advisories so guess the steering etc is OK.
What about the track rod ends and possibly the ball joint on the Steering box? These were going to be the next thing I looked at if it didn't solve it.
But as only just up the road can always look together, got a mate with a good selection of tools as well so can pretty much break anything... :)
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Do you have a steering damper? (I don't know much about defenders) I had the same prob after removing the old damper on my RRC, someone said it wasn't necessary but at 50mph the wobble was quite dangerous. Like you it was invariably started by a slight knock from a pothole or stone.
I fitted a new damper and problem gone.
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Have you tightened the adjuster on the steering box to take out some of the slack?
I would also say look at the swivel pin re-load and the wheel bearings, doesn't cost anything to check them. :wink:
Steering damper is another place that could be adding to the problem if that's gone. [edit: Like what he said above #-o ]
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Can compare it to mine if you want,
that would be great, I'm really starting to tear my hair out over this one.
I'd not even thought about steering damper or swivel pins.. anyone got a spring balance thing? Can the swivels be checked without dismantling the cv housing thingy?
Ball joints all seem ok although I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for to be honest :(
Have you tightened the adjuster on the steering box to take out some of the slack?
I didn't even know there was one - where would I look? (I guess the workshop manual would be a good start!)
Thanks chaps
Matthew
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My 90 developed a wobble. Changed the steering damper and all ok. :D
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You can check the swivel pin for play by jacking one wheel off the ground, grab teh wheel at 6 & 12 o'clock positions and try to push the top in and pull the bottom out and wiggle. If you can feel any play then get someone to lay under the vehicle and look at the swivel housing seal to see if it moves when you move the wheel. If so then your pre-load needs looking at.
To tighten, remove the two bolts from the top swivel pin, take the pin out and remove some shims until you get the correct poundage on the spring balance (remember to tighten the bolts on the top pin before checking the pressure :wink: ). If there are no shims under the top pin or it's still loose when all the shims have been removed then a new set of swivel bearings will be needed.
The adjuster on the steering box is on the top of the box and is either an allen screw with a securing nut round it or a flathead screw with securing nut. Undo the securing nut and tighten the screw clockwise, say quater of a turn at a time, and check how it feels, once you're happy then tighten the securing nut again (you may have to keep preasure on the adjustment screw to stop it moving.
If you fine you can't tighten it any further and it's still loose then it's a new box. :(
Nice job for a Sunday Matt! :D
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Or like me just take out some shims till it feels OK..... :shock:
But that depends on you and how old your 90 is, mine is 18 so not too worried about doing it the easy way, and if I breaks then I have an excuse to strip it down and replace the very worn and leaking swivels.. :wink:
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Thanks for that - it doesn't sound too tricky - i thought you were goign to tell me to strip the swivels out... something I did once and don't look forward to do again.
I'm pretty sure I jacked up and checked the bearings by doing what you just said to do the swivels so again I can't see that being too difficult.. I assume by any play, that means, any movement at all especially a free movement then moving the car, (i.e. a gap in something)?
I just read the workshop manual about the steering box and it went into all sorts of things (basically a complete strip and rebuild) so I was somewhat worried then!
Thanks for your clear instructions.. I'll give those a go as soon as I'm allowed out to play again :D
Matthew
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If you need a hand give me a shout, am around most weekends, even if I can't get out and play as much as I'd like :cry:
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Or like me just take out some shims till it feels OK..... :shock:
But that depends on you and how old your 90 is, mine is 18 so not too worried about doing it the easy way, and if I breaks then I have an excuse to strip it down and replace the very worn and leaking swivels.. :wink:
Mine is err, goodness knows how old.. the reg is C, she's got a 200 tdi, rear disc axle off something or other.. a modified roll cage (probably off something else.. a hard top from a friend in wales etc etc and so forth and so on! So I guess around 20 years at the worst bits and new at the best bits.
If I had a spring balance I'd give the swivels a proper measure... (If I recall you drop the steering arms ball joint bits and use a spring balance to pull (I think I used a set of scales last time and tried to keep a constant force on but that was in the garage off the car!!!
Sounds like I've got a few things to check now :-)
Also as you are local are you up for some laning sometime soon? Which reminds me I must post a warning about the lane in chineham, it's virtually impassable at the moment due to forrestry commision trucks gouging it out.
Matthew
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I've been told I'm allowed out tomorrow or next sunday :)
Weather for tomorrow is not looking too bad either!
Matthew
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when mine did that, symotoms for me... going along 50 ish on country road, hit pothole whislte going around a bend, steering shook violenty brakeing made it worse :shock: had to accelerate to balance it off
nearly a 90 shape hole in fence :lol: :lol:
problem
f***** swivle housing bearings
o and 1 broken bottom pin :roll: :roll:
swivle rebuild its now like new :roll:
part from the odd dents, bit of rust here n there, o and it smokes like a trooper :lol: :lol:
danny
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I'm not particularly looking forward to a swivel rebuild, but if I got to go it, then so be it!
Matthew
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easy peasy bud
ya can get complete kits from paddocks now for 68 quid :shock: including a new ball :shock: teflon not chrome
just jack the wheels up tomorrow and give them a good rock holding the wheel at 12-6 o'clock and get someone else to watch were the play is
you might be able to tighten them up by just removing a shim or to
but mine i could move it back and forth a inch so i thought sommat was deffo rong and stripped um down
danny
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finding the person to watch is the hard part.. my wife doesn't do mechanics!
Last time I did a rebuild it took me two hours to get the bolts out of the swivel housing to axle :( that was on a different car.. I doubt these ones have been touched for a while which mens they'll probably be a pain.. let's hope they dont need a rebuild!
M
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you dont need to unbolt the chrome ball of the end of the axle :shock:
thats the long and annoying way of doing it
all ya need to do is remove the swivle housing not the ball
if a observer is a problem, get her to rock the wheel and you look
just make sure she has her bowle of wheatabix in the morning :wink: :lol:
if you were alf our or a hour away id come and help
but am 3 hourse away :roll:
and got a winch bumper to make :cry:
danny
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you dont need to unbolt the chrome ball of the end of the axle :shock:
thats the long and annoying way of doing it
all ya need to do is remove the swivle housing not the ball
if a observer is a problem, get her to rock the wheel and you look
just make sure she has her bowle of wheatabix in the morning :wink: :lol:
if you were alf our or a hour away id come and help
but am 3 hourse away :roll:
and got a winch bumper to make :cry:
danny
sorry, I meant that you have to remove it for a rebuild.. one of them is a little pitted anyway so it's probbaly it's time to go :-(
M
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wel replace it with so nice new teflon ones then
will outlast the landy them will :shock:
soon as my chrome balls are pitted :lol: :lol:
am sticking some teflon ones on
before you go and remove them
forget wd as it dont work on them :roll:
go out and buy urself a blowtorch and a spare cannister
and warm the casting up where the bolts are 1 at a time
give them a couple of gud old belts with the gentle pursuasion tool before attempting to remove
makes the job alot easier and quicker
when refitting dab some copper slip on them
makes it easier to remove nexe time
ie when broken a shaft :roll: :oops:
just unbolt the whole lot with piece of mind its gonna come undone :roll:
danny
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forget wd as it dont work on them :roll:
go out and buy urself a blowtorch and a spare cannister
and warm the casting up where the bolts are 1 at a time
well if they don't shift first time, I'll have the oxy on them :)
M
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ditto
blowtorch childsplay
burner gets my vote anyday :wink:
didnt think had any thats y :roll:
then again a burner is std land rover equiptment :lol:
makes 5 hour jobs 20 min jobs
how to remove front axle dan style :lol: :lol:
danny
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ditto
blowtorch childsplay
burner gets my vote anyday :wink:
didnt think had any thats y :roll:
then again a burner is std land rover equiptment :lol:
makes 5 hour jobs 20 min jobs
how to remove front axle dan style :lol: :lol:
danny
lol... i'd love to have my own oxy-acetaline but i dont have the balls to keep it around, however mates dad has and knows how to use it! also has calor and oxygenwhich is useful for slightly lower temp stuff :-)
M
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cant beat the little portable bottles
also comes in handy for welding and also removing 200tdi crank bolts :wink:
best bit of kit ive got i reckon :roll:
danny
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cant beat the little portable bottles
also comes in handy for welding and also removing 200tdi crank bolts :wink:
best bit of kit ive got i reckon :roll:
danny
can you buy a little bottle kit? I assume I can get a full size jobby on my BOC contract but dont think I need it more than the occasional off chance.
Matthew
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yea
now afink my bottles are 10 litre maybe less, but they brill
last ages
cut 6 disco's up before had 2 get the refilled
have a look on eblag c whats kicking around
danny
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yea
now afink my bottles are 10 litre maybe less, but they brill
last ages
cut 6 disco's up before had 2 get the refilled
have a look on eblag c whats kicking around
danny
hmm cant find anything on ebay(i.e. nothing that isnt an empty boc cylinder!).. then again i'm not really sure what i'm looking for!
Matt
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Matt, Next Sunday is the TV4x4 meet in Alton, which I may be going along to, depending on the mrs, tomorrow might just be a bit too soon and could have fun moving fallen trees after last night and todays storms, where is the byway in Chineham?
Have you done the ones north of Basingdump towards Overton?
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:lol:
just gonna nip out then wil have a looksy for u when get home
will pm u some links if i find out
danny
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Matt, Next Sunday is the TV4x4 meet in Alton, which I may be going along to, depending on the mrs, tomorrow might just be a bit too soon and could have fun moving fallen trees after last night and todays storms, where is the byway in Chineham?
Have you done the ones north of Basingdump towards Overton?
well I'm hoping to have a bit of a look tomorrow... tv4x4.. is that the group the russ brown-lee used to be part of? If I could get the car fixed I'd come?
the byway in chinehamp runs up the side of chineham industrial estate running north.. it finihses where it crosses a road where it appears to go to bramley, but there is a big military sign up saying "OS map wrong, get blown up by the military if you proceed" (or words to that effect)
I'm sure I've done most of the lanes around here, but I'm always up for new trips out.. I've not long lived around here so looking for more friendly locals to show us the local area.
M
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wel replace it with so nice new teflon ones then
will outlast the landy them will :shock:
soon as my chrome balls are pitted :lol: :lol:
am sticking some teflon ones on
danny
I fitted Teflon ones (PTFE to be correct) and they didn't last a year :shock:
I recon it's stone chips that start the pitting, I was going to put a leather boot on them but the kit fits the wrong type of swivel so I left them and now they are going again already :evil:
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Anyway, the reason I'm reading this, my LSE has the same problem and I've checked everything suggested. My swivles are tighter than the yshould be now (can the top pin be worn on a Railko bush and cause a problem?)
My radius arms are polybushed which made it worse, the panhard rod is also polybused, I adjusted the play in the steering box and fitted new air springs and dampers. Heavy dampers cover it up and oddly i found with one set of tyres that loosening the bushes on the steering damper stopped the steering kickback,although the fron tof the car still wobbles side to side.
It's getting on my nerves, especially when the scruffy old off-roader drives so much better.
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I know how annoying it is RRB.... it's even more annoying when the weather forcast says clear and i get up to thunder and lightning and down poors...I should be out playing :(
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I've given up listening to forecasts :roll:
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YAYYYYYY 95% of the way there :)
removed a shim from the off side swivel pin, it did take the load from 4 to 6 kilos but it moved easily enough and removed all of the 12-6 play but there was 9-3 play so I checked the wheel bearing and that was loose, did that up and all play removed from that side.. grease was a bit of a rusty colour and the ball is getting pitted so probably time to change the whole thing, hoepfully the CV joint is ok inside.
Did the other side as well, bearing was fine that side but tightened it a touch anyhow as it was a little bit loose for my liking. Removed one of the shims and that removed the 12-6 play but we were on .9mm shims we're now on .8 mm and the next step down I can make is .2mm with what Iv'e got which seems far too big a jump given that .1mm reduced 70% of the play.
Also did the steering box - wow what a difference, I now no longer look like I'm driving in one of those old balck and white films trying to keep the car straight. Still pulls a little to the N/S but that might just be tyres (grizlies) and camber of the road.
Went for a quick test drive and everythign seems ok, small amount of wobble at it's typical sites (deceleration from 70-30 with a little shake at around 40ish, which could just be tyre balance now), and hardly anything on the way up.
So next port of call will be to try and get some difference sized shims. Then replace the o/s swivel housing.
I did see a complete 300tdi axle on ebay recently.. are they interchangeable with an early 90? I've definately got a later axle on the back (is a 90 one with mounts for ARB, not sure exactly which flavour) but it's disc braked.
Thank you to all those who offered advice and help, and especially Ian for turning up to pass spanners and get mucky :-)
Matthew
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6Kg :shock: :shock: :shock:
That's stiff.
BTW, I find when you wobble a wheel to check the bearings that the disk calliper will mask a lot of play, you need to lever the pads out of the way first.
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So next port of call will be to try and get some difference sized shims
What do you mean? what may have happened is that you ermoved what you thought was one shim but if you bend it you'll probably find it is a few, they seem to get themselves welded together.... :wink:
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6Kg :shock: :shock: :shock:
That's stiff.
BTW, I find when you wobble a wheel to check the bearings that the disk calliper will mask a lot of play, you need to lever the pads out of the way first.
well the normal amount it 3.5 to 4.5 so not that far over :shock:
I had an assistant (Ian) sat on the other side feeling the various bits to work out if it was swivel or bearing - not shouldIcould have done it without him :)
Matt
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So next port of call will be to try and get some difference sized shims
What do you mean? what may have happened is that you ermoved what you thought was one shim but if you bend it you'll probably find it is a few, they seem to get themselves welded together.... :wink:
I'd go and check, but that one's on the car.. I only realised that when I arrived in the garage ready to go and bend the old ones I'd removed - doh!
Shame they're a bit bigger than the disco ones as I've some of those spares :)
Matthew