Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Discovery => Topic started by: Darren on November 23, 2006, 22:03:25
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Has anybody got one? Or can point me at a decent picture of a demountable winch cradle?
I've never really craved a winch before but I've just won one in a competition - a T-Max EW 11000. It even came with one of those under bumper discreet winch mounts :shock: However, I'm now seriously considering having some brackets made up to suit my Southdown tank guard and Terrain Master steering guard that will enable me to attach a winch at either end of the vehicle. I don't, however, want to re-invent the wheel so I'd like to see what's already out there. The only company that I know of that made a similar system was Marshland, but their website has gone and I'm presuming they have too.
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If you do manage to track down marshland, could you post some details, I bought one of their rear recovery plates for my old defender, and thought it was one of the best pieces of 'rover kit i've ever bought, from anyone.
if they are still around, they can have an order for a pair of discovery bumpers from me....
as for removable winches... the only idea i've got is to fit one to a dixon-bate slider... but it doesn't sound liek you've got a dixon-bate drop hitch on your truck......
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Too much messing about are demountable winches and, invariably, if your stuck and need to use it you need to mess about with fitting it and if your up the 'gunnels' in mud and crap you will wish it was already fitted.
Damned heavy things to mess about with in recovery situation.
If it cost you nowt and you don't want it though, I'll find it a home :lol:
Fix the [!Expletive Deleted!] permanently and be done with it :wink:
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Each to their own, Tyke. For what I use my truck for I'm much more likely to be recovering somebody else than myself but even so, if I make it demountable then I don't have to lug it around for the 90% of the time when I really won't need it. Plus, I like an engineering challenge :lol:
If I could get an off-the-shelf demountable cradle, I can easily make an adapter to fit my Southdown tank guard so I may end up with a rear mounted winch at first. Making a mount for the front is a little more involved but that could wait 'till later.
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as for removable winches... the only idea i've got is to fit one to a dixon-bate slider... but it doesn't sound liek you've got a dixon-bate drop hitch on your truck......
That woud certainly make the 'demounting' bit easy.
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Most of the existing winch mounting systems use a standard receiver system.
Have a look here :
http://www.warn.com/truck/mounting-systems/multi_mount.shtml
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Thanks for that, Tim. Nice, but pricey :)
However, following on from freeagents suggestion, I've been speaking to Alfred Murray (they of the Milemarker) this morning. They do a complete demountable kit for the Defender but can sell me just the winch carrier for about £150. The big advantage of this is that the demountable coupling is a standard Dixon Bate slider, so all I need to complete it is either a cut down adjustable frame or a simple U shaped steel section that I can bolt to my tow bar bracket. This means I can reasonably easily engineer a rear demountable winch - the front is a little more complicated but that can wait 'till later :D
(http://www.4x4winches.com/images/demountable%203.jpg)
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thats just what i had in mind Darren.
my old defender had a cut down dixon bate thingy on the rear cross-member, i had about 5 dixon bate sliders with different fittings.. including one with a vice on it... pointless untill the day that you realy need it, then its priceless.
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I've got one, it's great. Just sits on a towball, job done. It's from Dave Bowyer and it's called a backrack. £60.
I have no to winch to get stolen, I have no winch to confound the insurance company, I have no winch adding too much weight right out over the front axle, then just by lifting a big bag out of the boot I have a winch at either end of my car.
Ask yourself, how often will you use it? if it's not every day then it's just there for show, and I'd rather not let everybody know what I've got thanks.
Besides, the amount of peole who try to drive under the front of my car, it'd just get smashed :roll:
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Hi RRB,
It's interesting to find somebody who's used the Bak Rak. I looked at it but wasn't really sure how stable the mounting would be for recovery purposes. Does it rotate much on the tow ball, and how far out does it project?
Oh, and I don't need convincing of the benefits of having it demountable :lol:
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I'd say it sticks out maybe 3 or 4 inches behind the winch, literally the towball sits behind the winch tray. Yes it gets in the way of the tailgate on the RRC but that's another reason it doesn't LIVE there.
I haven't used it in anger TBH, I always wanted a winch and had to nag SWMBO that it was a bargain at Donnington last Feb. I've never used it, I carry it every time we go out but I rarely NEED my lockers TBH, given how infrequently Tim gets stuck without any toys, I think I got the better of him once in Leicester and that was more down to reading the ground.
Anyway, I digress. It fits over a clampshell on the towball, so you can have a vice/tool rack/winchg etc etc on a stable platform, it doesn't rotate because the sides of the reciever rest on the shank of a towball and prevent it. If you ground it down then it would. I'm not sure of the merrits of that either way though.
I gathered you were interested in a removeable, like me, it's just that some folks seem to want to poo-poo the idea, that's all. There are positives and negatives, like it's ****** heavy for one and needs strapping down, I was reminded today when my toolbax full of shackles and snatch blocks flew up and landed slightly skewed so on top of something else. All the contents burst through the bottom of it.
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and be sure to see Porny Ian for the wiring - he has a good supply of anderson connectors and leads.
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Thanks for the feedback RRB.
I think the one I've found with the Dixon Bate connector is probably going to more suitable for what I want. It's (relatively) low profile, which means that when I get around to making a bracket for the front end I have the option of the winch riding up there just like a permanently fixed one if the situation calls for it. A DB towbar also means I can add other interchangable goodies on separate sliders such as a NATO hitch, although I haven't mentioned a Sankey trailer to my better half yet :D
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Thanks for the pointer, Dave. That could be just what I'm going to need :)
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Yes being able to change the coupling for something else is useful, I have a Southdown on the back so I can but they don't make anything for the front which is a shame. Had I known Scorpion were going to introduce one I might have waited for that. You live and learn.
I want something for the front which won't alter the profile at all, I'm thinging of jack-mayes with a towball kit and dropping the back rack onto that. The towball would have to be secured onto the towing eye of the jack mate though.
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I've just ordered my winch carrier, so should be here in a week or so :)
At the rear, the 'receiver' part of the Dixon Bate arrangement is going to be bolted to a low profile removable tow bar that I had made for my Southdown tank guard some time ago.
At the front, I've got a Terrain Master steering guard, which is basically a pair of Jack Mates with a bash plate between them. I plan to have a bracket made up that spans between the two recovery eyes and braced in the two jacking tubes to which I'll bolt a second DB receiver.
Doesn't the Jack Mate tow ball kit just fit on one side? I'd be a bit wary of using that for a winch as I don't think the mounting bolts would be up to the load.
I'd be interested to know how you've routed your wiring. Did you run both +ve and -ve right back to the battery or did you attach the -ve to the chassis nearer the back?
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Darren, what you are planning to do is of great interest to me, as i intend to do exactly the same thing next year, i have the same steering guard as you, and am soon to have a disco parts rear bumper.
i'm going to buy a winch next year, but want it demountable, as don't want to carry it about all the time.
can you post some pics when you get your bracket made up?
i've got a cut down dixon bate bracket, ready to bolt onto my discoparts bumper when it arives... :)
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Absolutely :) When I've got it all together I'll be writing it up for my website too.
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I like the look of that system RRB, it would mean i could use a winch on several vehicles.
On the link they state there fitting is designed to take a 9000lb winch. I have been looking at cheap 12000lb winches on ebay (I know Warn & Superwinch are better but it's only for occasional recovery) because i like the idea of the larger cable it comes with, it seems to be the same dimensions as a 9000lb winch so i should think would fit, my question is do they state 9000lb because that is the max rating of the ball hitch itself :?:
Any ideas :?:
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I would guess it's limited more by the tow ball. Also, whilst I've been talking to various suppliers about this stuff, it was pointed out to me that a Land Rover chassis is only rated to about 3.8 tonnes. This means that strictly speaking an 11000lb/5 tonne winch (which is what I've got) is over the top, but in practice it just means it won't have to work quite as hard as a smaller one.
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I would guess it's limited more by the tow ball. Also, whilst I've been talking to various suppliers about this stuff, it was pointed out to me that a Land Rover chassis is only rated to about 3.8 tonnes. This means that strictly speaking an 11000lb/5 tonne winch (which is what I've got) is over the top, but in practice it just means it won't have to work quite as hard as a smaller one.
That's what i was thinking about the tow bar.
I was also thinking along the same lines with the bigger winch, as i haven't the budget for a superwinch or warn (it probably won't get used enough to warrant that expense anyway) and as the cheap ones i'm looking at are pretty much the same price for 9000lb or 12000lb i figured get the one with the beefier parts and hopefully it won't get too stressed
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for 9000lb or 12000lb i figured get the one with the beefier parts and hopefully it won't get too stressed
You might though ! Don't forget we're talking about demountable winches here... they aren't light at the best of times ;-)
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a plasma rope would keep the weight down !
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for 9000lb or 12000lb i figured get the one with the beefier parts and hopefully it won't get too stressed
You might though ! Don't forget we're talking about demountable winches here... they aren't light at the best of times ;-)
mmm #-o you might have a point there :? checked on the weights of the winches both are very similar actually at about 95lb still bloomin heavy though, so maybe that's why they're usually in a fixed position. Time for a rethink :?
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That is, unfortunately, one of the downsides. For me, I consider the trade-off worth it, but it does depend on what you expect to use it for and how often. The weight saving is one reason why I expect I'll go the plasma rope route eventually. I'd like to get it connected up and working first though :)
In the meantime, one of the small bonuses about being able to mount it on the rear will be that it won't have to be carried around to the front :lol:
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Doesn't the Jack Mate tow ball kit just fit on one side? I'd be a bit wary of using that for a winch as I don't think the mounting bolts would be up to the load.
It fastens to a lot more than most winch bumpers do but the towball adapter is held into the jacking socket by a relatively thin bolt so I'd want to secure the towball adapter to the towing eye as well. Obviously it's better to winch onto both chassis legs but if the winching is that extreme I'd be double line pulling back to the other jack mate anyway.
That said I'm drafting plans for a 'dumb iron' with towball receiver that will be a lot more secure, I'll have to make it myself though or it will end up costing more than a winch bumper.
I'd be interested to know how you've routed your wiring. Did you run both +ve and -ve right back to the battery or did you attach the -ve to the chassis nearer the back?
Goodwinch made me 2 full looms, front and rear with full earth cable which goes straight to the battery. They included a manual isolator but I've bought another solenoid I'm looking at using as an isolator with an in-cab switch just in case :o
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Ah, ok. Sounds very much like what I'll end up with. The only thing I'm not sure about yet is where to mount the connector on the rear, which is partly why I wondered about the earth cable.
I guess on yours you can connect it inside through the open top tailgate? Obviously not an option on a Disco so I'm considering mounting it externally, although the size and relative inflexibiltiy (is that a word?) of the cables does limit things somewhat.
For the front mounting, I'm going to get something like the attached fabricated, which can be attached with a couple of large shackles and is braced in the jacking tubes. But again, it'll wait until I've got the thing up and running on the rear first.
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Yes for me the cable runs along the chasis then up through 2 gromets in to the rear load area to keep the socket clean. On the front it will sit along the slam panel or similar.
The cables won't be kniked but they are reasonably bendy (I think they use welding cable which is many many fine strands).
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Just seen the download, I'd thoguh of simothing similar but it's going to be one heavy piece of metal is it's not going to kink in use.
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I know what you mean. Most winch bumpers seem to be 5mm steel and basically be like a tray that the winch sits in. I reckon that a 50 x 75mm box section with a 3mm or 4mm wall thickness and 10mm thick end plates should be man enough, though. I might even be able to have holes cut in the top and bottom face to save weight, but I'll need to do some calculations for that.
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Well, it's taken a while, but I've finally made some progress with this. Did a 'dry run' fitting today of the winch cradle and receiver and so far, so good :)
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stage1v8/Rear_Winch_1.JPG)
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stage1v8/Cradle.JPG)
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stage1v8/Rear_Winch_2.JPG)
The rear door will just open with the winch in place, which is nice.
The solenoids are going to be mounted inside, in the space where the offside jump seat would be.
Next jobs are to paint the cradle and receiver before bolting it all together properly and to sort out the power cables. After that, I've got to get a bracket for the front mounting made up.
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If you put the relays in the car, you need another set for the front don't you?
I'm starting to think it will be cheaper and easier to use a steering guard with recovery eyes than having the jack mates made how I want them. because they'd be one=offs they'd be expensive
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Yeah, probably. It's a trade off against being able to open the rear door with the thing in place and also slightly reducing the weight that has to be lifted in and out.
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looking good mate :D
dan
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Yeah, probably. It's a trade off against being able to open the rear door with the thing in place and also slightly reducing the weight that has to be lifted in and out.
And carried back into the garage when you get home. Tell me about it :roll: