Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Discovery => Topic started by: denviks on July 17, 2006, 19:40:52
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hi all. i really need some advice. i have had a vibration problem on my 200tdi disco for quite a while now. it sort of feels like its vibrating the whole truck ie you cant really feel it through the steering. i have changed the uj's on the front prop, and i have just changed the front bearing on the output shaft on the transfere box. but the vibration is still there :evil:
oh and i have checked all levels.....and all wheels and tyres have been eliminated
any ideas what else i can check.?????
im lost now
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stop letting the kids jump around in the back. :wink: :lol: :lol:
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hi all. i really need some advice. i have had a vibration problem on my 200tdi disco for quite a while now. it sort of feels like its vibrating the whole truck ie you cant really feel it through the steering. i have changed the uj's on the front prop, and i have just changed the front bearing on the output shaft on the transfere box. but the vibration is still there :evil:
oh and i have checked all levels.....and all wheels and tyres have been eliminated
any ideas what else i can check.?????
im lost now
denviks wrote:
hi all. i really need some advice. i have had a vibration problem on my 200tdi disco for quite a while now. it sort of feels like its vibrating the whole truck ie you cant really feel it through the steering. i have changed the uj's on the front prop, and i have just changed the front bearing on the output shaft on the transfere box. but the vibration is still there
oh and i have checked all levels.....and all wheels and tyres have been eliminated
any ideas what else i can check.?????
im lost now
Den, I've got a similar problem but havent eliminated the rims & tyres the disco vibrates but I also get it through the steering. I'm not sure if thats because Ive got HD steering & drag rods & have therefore removed the damper & the harmonic. Have you had your props checked for balance as this can have a dramatic effect. The UJ's can be ok but the prop can be out of balance. (shouldnt we be having this discussion somewhere else like another mutual forum!)
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Check all the ball joints, bushes etc but If you have a spare prop put that on
Mud on the inside of the rims
Darren
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are the propshafts in phase? if i remember they need to be having the yokes at either end in the same position, we get this on agricultural stuff if the props arent aligned they can cause a vibration thats transmitted up the prop
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Good thinking Beast. That would be speed related though and you would notice it changing as you worked the motor. Worth a check anyway.
Den . . . is the vibration constant or related to engine speed or road speed?
Other quick check could be engine/tranny mounts.
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good thinking about the props mate.......i will check that in the morning :wink:
the vibration is speed related. doesnt matter what the rev counter is doing it always becomes noticable at about 60. :?
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Bit in this months LRO that i picked up today, similar problem in some respects and the gurus there say it could be swivel bearings.
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but would they be picked up on an mot? it passed its mot last weeke with flying colours. what ever the cause of this vibration is , it is on nothing that would fail an mot :( :( :(
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To pass a mot wheel bearings ball joint should be okay
Take the front prop of shove it in diff lock and take for short run ......if no vibration its your Prop
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Or at least you'd know which end it was coming from. It could be something stupid like a collapsed CV support bearing, buckled wheel, mud in the rim, weak spot in the tyres, missing prop bolts, even a missing grease nipple.
Are you sure it's not a missfire in the engine?
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cheers for the sudgestions guys..... i have rebuilt both props now.... :D ..... it was one of the first things i did. i have replaced all the bolts on the props too. replaced the front out put bearing on the transfere box ( loads of fun ) ....
the front nearside does feel a little weird while driving now. i cant describe it to be honest but it doesnt feel quite as tight as the offside while driving. when you hit a bump it gives you a little knock back.....just a tiny one. so i now know its coming from fron t nearside.
so where are the cv support bearings hiding then? :wink:
checked all the other bits so its got to be something that i havent checked yet.
slowly loosing the will to live as its been vibrating for 6 months now :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Ok so time to check the wheel bearings. The CV support bearing is inside the stub axle, oddly enough around the end of the CV joint. Depending on what type of axles you have there are a variety of bearing types, 2 main ones on Disco and RRC. The roller bearings used on ABS axles tend to be the ones that colapse but on high mileage non-abd units the bronze bush bearing can wear away especially if the swivel oil has leaked away.
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Ok so time to check the wheel bearings. The CV support bearing is inside the stub axle, oddly enough around the end of the CV joint. Depending on what type of axles you have there are a variety of bearing types, 2 main ones on Disco and RRC. The roller bearings used on ABS axles tend to be the ones that colapse but on high mileage non-abd units the bronze bush bearing can wear away especially if the swivel oil has leaked away.
wheel bearings checked.......only replaced them 3000 miles ago... :wink: i will have a look see for the cv support bearing and see what i can find.............
is there a way to tell that is no good? i know with my truck things that have gone in the past dont tend to stand out a mile :wink:
just wanna say a massive thanks for all the advice so far guys ... :D :D :D
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May sound mad but check your pully. as mine is slighty warped and it shakes the whole car. but you can only see the pully wobble when the engine is running. havent a clue how it got warped and all bolts are tight on it.
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If you've got the ABS axle and have the roller bearings on the CV it's easy, they will collapse. Some had a solid bronze bush-bearing but I think that was Defender.
On the RRC without ABS you will find either a solid bronze bush or a laminted one on later models with dimples in the surface to hold oil It the cv is very loose in this it's toast but TBH it has to wear a lot, unless it's broken up. There is also a bronze bush inside the swivel to axle flange to support the half shaft on non-ABS axles, check this too.
Wheel bearings, I know you swapped them but just check they havn't crept as you were driving. Did you fit branded ones? hong-kong fuey ones don't have such a good reputation for longevity.
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If you've got the ABS axle and have the roller bearings on the CV it's easy, they will collapse. Some had a solid bronze bush-bearing but I think that was Defender.
On the RRC without ABS you will find either a solid bronze bush or a laminted one on later models with dimples in the surface to hold oil It the cv is very loose in this it's toast but TBH it has to wear a lot, unless it's broken up. There is also a bronze bush inside the swivel to axle flange to support the half shaft on non-ABS axles, check this too.
Wheel bearings, I know you swapped them but just check they havn't crept as you were driving. Did you fit branded ones? hong-kong fuey ones don't have such a good reputation for longevity.
cheers mate :wink: ...mines the 200 tdi on a k plate so i would assume that its the older stuff fitted....... i definatly dont have the posh ABS :lol: :lol: ...i will have a look as soon as i get a chance.....all very good ideas that i havent checked yet. :wink: ....the bearings i fitted were quality ones. although i cant remember the name now for the life of me :roll: ....looks like im gonna get covered in one shot again :D :D
i do need to get to the bottom of this as its slowly shaking all my rust out :D :D ....
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Dennis, can you tell me a little more about the symptoms as I recently broke down in France with very similar problems however my vibration got so bad that I had to stop as it didn't feel safe with a 4 Yr old in the back.
A French mechanic has checked the vehicle and simply says there is no problem and I can collect it!
I am a little concerned as I don't want to drive the 900 miles home if it a serious problem.
Have you driven it without the front prop as mentioned earlier?
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I had a similar problem (haven't we all) i would have put money on it being a wheel bearing, infact i changed both front sets twice.
Each front hub has 5 bearings.
two "wheel bearings, a needle roller bearing that sits between the two wheel bearings, Item 16 in the pic, and two swivel hub bearings (top & bottom)
(http://members.mud-club.com/galleryimages/330180d322ac2f80b4c44a9fbd1d5e61.gif)
I found that the cause of my very bad vibration was the bush on the panhard rod. Take the panhard rod off and check the bush and bolts.
(http://members.mud-club.com/galleryimages/e94f42ecfac1b2c904f2e103c2d9575c.jpg)
regards
wizard :twisted:
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May sound mad but check your pully. as mine is slighty warped and it shakes the whole car. but you can only see the pully wobble when the engine is running. havent a clue how it got warped and all bolts are tight on it.
are you sure the keyways not broke cause mine just has with similar symptoms resulting in knackered damper and trying to remove invisable keyway from crank
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I lookes at a 200TDi without ABS today myself. Unfortunately the picture Wizard posted is the ABS type (Ithink also fitted to 300 TDI) so the bearing item 16 is the CV bush I was on about but there is another bush on the halfshaft (becasue the CV joint is not part of the drive member on non-ABs axles). Essentially it's a RRC axle you should have, so the CV bearings will be solid types. Check for excessive wear or collapse, CV failure and half shaft damage.
Check the diff for backlash too whilst you're under there.
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Check the diff for backlash too whilst you're under there.
What do you mean by backlash?
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cheers so far guys.you are giving me sooo much to look for..... i have a new development today. it might be related but there again who knows :lol: :lol: :lol: ...while out having a gentle play i did notice a clonk ( very quite ) over a few bumps.....now it does sound like a bush starting to go :shock: .... this is the first time ive heard it.now all the shocks are new. so that takes them out of the way. so could this be the bush on the panard ???
seems like a coincedence :wink:
snezza mate..... the vibrations get really bad in mine if i put the boot down. i have not long come back from scotland ( a 2000+ mile round trip ) and had the vibration all the way. just at 60 it was livable so stuck to that :wink: . i cant say for definate that yours would be fine though ......will they recover you again if it goes???
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Hang on, it vibrates worse under power? have you got a missfire? perhaps an air leak that only shows up under load, that could do it. Try it in both 5th and 4th just to be sure it's not got anything to do with the engine. I have a vibration on Blue that comes on at 50 ish but only in 5th, when the engine and propshaft speeds are similar. Only came on when I swapped the axles and engine so it's not the 'box, I think it's a little imbalance in both axle and a misfire that I havn't cured yet (valve going I think).
that's also why I asked about the backlash, if there is a lot of f4ree play in the diff input shaft or any sideways play at all.
Just remind me, you are sure it's not a UJ going aren't you? and have you considered the vibrationmay actualy be at the back end? (comes up through the propshaft and ofetn hard to distinguish between front/rear).
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Hang on, it vibrates worse under power? have you got a missfire? perhaps an air leak that only shows up under load, that could do it. Try it in both 5th and 4th just to be sure it's not got anything to do with the engine. I have a vibration on Blue that comes on at 50 ish but only in 5th, when the engine and propshaft speeds are similar. Only came on when I swapped the axles and engine so it's not the 'box, I think it's a little imbalance in both axle and a misfire that I havn't cured yet (valve going I think).
that's also why I asked about the backlash, if there is a lot of f4ree play in the diff input shaft or any sideways play at all.
Just remind me, you are sure it's not a UJ going aren't you? and have you considered the vibrationmay actualy be at the back end? (comes up through the propshaft and ofetn hard to distinguish between front/rear).
sorry...i meant that when i put my boot down as in travel at more than 55 mph :oops: :oops:
sorry. but still more good things to look at. im going to be under the truck today to see what i can see. :wink:
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Hang on, it vibrates worse under power? quote]
The wierd thing with mine was the vibration starts at 60 (only in 5th), gets really bad to 80, but at 80 it calms (a window of about 3 MPH). If I drop the clutch and stick it in Neutral at 75 when the vibration is near its worst, the vibration stays there. If I get to 75mph and just take my foor off the accelerator, the vibration goes completely.
I have noticed that if I drice the thing for more than a few hours, the clutch gets spongey and after a full days driving it will only grind into reverse, however the following day once cooled down, it is back to normal. I think this is a different fault so will put in another thread for this one!
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The thing with just cruising is that everything moves at the same speed but nothing is under load. My diff was like that for about 2 minutes before I left bits of it on the A1.
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havin rebuilt both front swivels now with all new parts i still have the vibration. it doesnt seem to have made a difference. i have also now rebuilt the rear hubs with new seals and bearings as well just to iliminate them.....
im slowly loosing the will to live. i am going to have the tracking checked tomorrow.......it does feel like its coming from the front........i just dont know what else to try now
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As it turns out my front prop was shot and it was'nt safe to drive (got recovered OK).
Just a thought, not sure if this has been mentioned or not, have you checked the bearing on the output shaft from the front dif?
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As it turns out my front prop was shot and it was'nt safe to drive (got recovered OK).
Just a thought, not sure if this has been mentioned or not, have you checked the bearing on the output shaft from the front dif?
glad you found yours mate :D :D :D :D
is that the bearings in the end of the sub axle? i have changed every bearing in the hub asembly now....... nothing left to change but the cv joints. :roll: :roll: :roll: and still it persists....
think its time to go on to suspension bushes next ....or go through the steering and work my way up to the steering box..... :( :( :(
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just found spring issue 5 2006 of LRO page 210, what is purpose of heavy metal cylindrical item close to font diff. reply is it is a harmonic damper to reduce vibration on front axle. :!: any use to you, i have one on my disco.
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RRC didn't have them untill the (metric) EFi modles with thicker props. I've binned mine and it doens't make that much difference, it's not the cause here I feel.
I'm going to suggest you try driving with the front prop removed (and difflock of course) to see if it goes away, then try refitting that and removing the rear.
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replaced the front out put bearing on the transfere box ( loads of fun ) ....
Dennis can you go into a bit more detail on this need to do mine
Darren
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hi mate.i have done a full write up on the job on plcuk. have a nose
http://www.plcuk.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4061
hope it helps mate........ i did find it an easy job although getting the bearing out took me longer that it should of... :oops: :oops:
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RRC didn't have them untill the (metric) EFi modles with thicker props. I've binned mine and it doens't make that much difference, it's not the cause here I feel.
I'm going to suggest you try driving with the front prop removed (and difflock of course) to see if it goes away, then try refitting that and removing the rear.
hi mate.well ive done as you said..... no difference at all im afraid. still got the vibration coming up through the steering and the whole truck...
i have just been under the disco again and used a pry bar in the bushes on the panard rod. they dont feel too bad to be honest....about eaqual both sides. maybe a little soft. i might put another steering damper on her anyway just to be sure. the front steering bar seems alittle graity.... ie the ball joints seem seem like they bind slightly but still move. the rear tie rod bar seems ok and nice and smooth. im slowly loosing the will to live with this.......no idea where to go next :( :( :(
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A friend had this he found the track rod end was loose in the thread ....The clamp wasent doing its job
Might be!!!
Darren
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my vibration on over-run was due to the transfer box having too much play in it ...fitted another gear box and transfer box complete and airing on the side of caution fitted a new clutch at the same time ,and then found out the new clutch was faulty so had to replace it again a week later :( :( not happy with ap clutches at the moment
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im slowly loosing the will to live with this.......no idea where to go next :( :( :(
Ok, I'm going to have a long think about this, I need to recap. Someone buy me a drink......
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[ not happy with ap clutches at the moment[/quote]
just a quick point ap clutches have admitted a manufacturing fault on the release bearing and are going to reimburse me out of pocket expenses :D :D
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Ok, so let's recap, you know it is NONE of the following
Propshafts
wheel bearings
wheel balance
external play in the axles ie driveshafts/pinion bearings
did we say the gear you are in makes no diference?
Have you checked the drive mambers and bearings in the outer ends of the front axle?
If so then one more thing is to try disconnecting the propshaft and half shafts from one axle, then the other. Yes I know it's work but......
Also did we discount any sort of misfire in the engine? in 5th ours runs approx the same engine revs as prop revs, so 2 tiny vibrations combine to get annoying.
Did you try a different set of tyres? not just swapping front to back.
Oh, check the engine mounts.