Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Discovery => Topic started by: brianb on May 02, 2010, 18:04:31
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Hi All
Got my fist MAJOR problem, had to happen sooner or later lol.
2000 Discovery 2 TD5 Manual
Went to a pay and play day at Pea Farm Today..anyone there?
Anyway My brother got his trooper stuck and i tried to pull him out, couldn't budge it and my clutch was stinking so had to give up. I tried to put the car in reverse to get out of the way so someone else could have a go But i had a hell of a job to get it in gear, had to drive forward a bit, even getting it into first gear was a bit of a struggle but it eventually went into gear. As the day went on the clutch started to slip so badly i needed a tow into the car park.
I let the car cool down and when it was time to set off home i could not get it into gear, clutch pedal didnt seem to be doing anything, If i turned the engine off and put it on gear with the handbrake off and started the engine on a rolling start there was drive in first gear that lasted a short while and there was a sort of clung and we had no drive again. Hope that makes sense Basically is this just because the clutch plate if shagged or have a damaged something else?
The thrush bearing has been sqeaking for a few months now when ever the engine is cold and i pressed the clutch pedal in, its also had a problem getting it into reverse for a few months as well, not all the time but i sometimes had to put it into first and move forward a few inches and then it would go into reverse no problem so i dont know if this has ben a build up to this problem this afternoon.
If its the clutch plate do i have to replace the dual mass flyweeh as well??
Thanks all
Brian
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Sry to jack your post but I've got a similar problem when I change gear ther is like a rotating rumble noise . Sum1 I know said it's my clutch thrust bearing. If so how much are they roughly and how hard is it to do thanks .
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I'm no expert i would say clutch and or flywheel especially after trying to recover. Either way gearbox out and it will soon become apparent if the clutch and or dual mass flywheel has gone. From my limited dealings with dual mass flywheels they can have some very limited drive and then stop under their own accord as and when they feel like it, they also make some strange noises when trying to drive and when you turn the engine off.
HTH
John
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if the dual mass flywheel is knackered you will feel a vibration in the clutch pedal by sounds of it you should get away with a new clutch an to answer the other question no point just changin thrust bearin cuz if you strippin it down to change thrust bearin you may as well change clutch at same time an if any of you live near walsall i work in clutch centre so can do you a good deal
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Have you tried bleeding the clutch?
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Hi all and thanks for all the replys.
Well me and the brothers have just finnished taking the gear box out to inspect the clutch....what a [!Expletive Deleted!] job!! what were landrover thinking with some of those bolts, they were in stupidist places to get to
Anyway heres a picture of what we found inside the bell housing
(hope this works)
(http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac306/brianburdis/bellhousing.jpg)
Closer look at contents
(http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac306/brianburdis/IMGP2483.jpg)
and has anyone ever seen a clutch this bad???
(http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac306/brianburdis/IMGP2485.jpg)
And what about this
(http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac306/brianburdis/IMGP2484.jpg)
Pretty obvious now the clutch is nackered!
Cant understand how it got this bad, the Thrust bearing had been squeaking for months but no clutch slip NO judder nothing, Just starting slipping after trying to pull the brothers Trooper out of the mud.....im stunned at the damage, shredded clutch plate and shattered pressure plate. Even after the car lost drive totally there was no vibrarions or strange noises.
On closer inspection we could find no signs of a spigot bearing so looks like someone has changed the clutch in the past and not fitted it...dont know if this has made the problem worse?????
The Dual mass flywheel looked ok at first but there were a couple of metal plugs missing from around one side of it with what looks like some sort of pin. We could easly move the flywheel side to side so suspect the springs were shagged as well...so new flywheel as well GULP!!
The clutch and Dual mass fly wheel that was in is a Valeo Kit....is it worth fitting the same again?? or is there an alternative
Off for a bath now cos im filthy
Brian
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Off topic slightly, its interesting to see that there are no springs in the plate, so does the dual mass flywheel supply the damping when shock loading the clutch?
Aren't valeo factory fitted?
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OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Axetamer
Yep the dual mass flywheel has all the springs and bits, A complete 5 part kit from ebay is going to cost me about £360 and that includes
Dual mass flywheel
clutch plate
clutch cover
thrust bearing
Spigot bearing.
Wasnt sure if valeo were factory fitted or not...anyone know for sure??
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seen a worse friction disc.... as for the clutch cover good god.
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I wonder f the heat caused the cast iron in the pressure plate to fail, I'd guess the damage to that caused the shredding of the friction plate (sharp edges) but it's easier for you to see I guess.
Valeo are good parts so I wouldn't worry about quality, do they offer a heavy duty option?
Once done, run the clutch in carefully and trreat it kendly.
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I stuck a 110 clutch in my 90 made by Valeo about 6 months ago, so ..yes
But is the plate and cover compatable with the TD5 setup?
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Dont use QH,mine lasted a day!!!
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I stuck a 110 clutch in my 90 made by Valeo about 6 months ago, so ..yes
But is the plate and cover compatable with the TD5 setup?
I hope so as it was bought as a discovery 2 td5 kit, im off to double check me order :shock:
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that pressure plate has had some serious heat to cause that to snap an the best flywheel an clutchs you can by are either saches or luk we have had problems with valeo clutches at work but never with luk but they a bit more expensive but u get what you pay for
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Thanks for the reply.
I ended getting a 5 peice Valeo clutch kit, hopefully I'll get it fitted On sunday if it dont rain. Just a little worried on how the hell im going to lift the gearbox back into position let alone get it off the ground.
Brian
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Can I ask how you took it out cuz I half thinkin you took the bolts out pulled it back then let the bloody thing fall to the ground I supose you could split transfer box and gear box that would make it lighter but it will still be bloody heavy
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One way i believe is to use long studs made from threaded bar and slide the box back about 4-5 inches and not actually removing it completely from the vehicle, you'd have to rotate the flywheel using the crank pully bolt at the front of the engine to get at all the bolts.......not tried it myself though
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Why LR didn't fit an access panel to the bellhousing, then this method would be perfectly feasable because you could tighten the pressure plate up once the bellhousing was back on, that way you don't worry about aligning it.
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Can I ask how you took it out cuz I half thinkin you took the bolts out pulled it back then let the bloody thing fall to the ground I supose you could split transfer box and gear box that would make it lighter but it will still be bloody heavy
Yep thats more or less how it went...well we passed a strop from inside the landy through gearlever opening rounf the gearbox and back up, then me and brother 1 held it while brother 2 pulled it free. Once free mw and brother one lowered it to ground in a "sort" of controlled way. I doubt it will come up the same way. Getting a lend of an engine hoist to replace me and Brother 1 to lift it up while 2 of us hopefully push gearbox back on.
One other thing thats bothering me is we snapped 2 wires off fron the sensor at the top of bell housing, i can recconect them BUt i dont know which way round they were...oh well 50/50 chance of getting that bit right i suppose.
Cant beleive we snapped them, i thought we had disconnected all wires but just missed that one connector.
Anyone know what that sensor is?
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Only thing I can think is crank position sensor that would be in that kinda area I've heard of someone doin a clutch on a 110 with a engine hoist through the door like you say seams a good idea beats a bad back
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Yep its the crank sensor, Got a haynes manual but was no help as to which wire went to which pin so will have to connect it up and if it dont work then swap the wire over.
Ive also cut the wire from the oil sender as well?????? cant find the other end of that one, ive also got a white wire thats cut as well, god knows whats that for.
These wires must have been buried right at the back of the engine/bell housing...impossible to see till you have dameged them, BLOODY landrovers.
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There's a high and low switch and also a diff lock swith but there on the transfer box other than them I'm at a loss what the other wires are for
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well its in!!! :lol:
BUT
The clutch pedal feels crap and i cant get it in gear :-# :-#
When we were taking the gearbox off we removed the Clutch slave cylinder and the push rod dropped out and we lost some fluid. Around the end of the pushrod there was what might have been some sort of plastic cover/seal?? hard to work out what it was as it was all chewed and melted, probably due to the heat that the clutch cover was giving just before it shattered (see above pics).
Anyway we cleaned up the pushrod and shoved it back into the slave cylinder and re attatched it to the landy once we had got the gearbox in. We bled the clutch for nearly an hour and can see no sighn of air and the pedal feels a bit stiffer but we still cant get it into gear.
If we put it into gear with the engine off and the clutch pressed in then start the car we can drive and change gear, its a little bit difficult to get it into gear so i assume that the clutch is not moving as fully as it should, either because ive still got air in the system or theres seal damaged inside of slave cylinder OR the pushrod is sticking.
Off to europarts tommorow for a replacement slace cylinder @£39...i can get them cheaper off ebay but i cant wait for it to be delivered and just want to get it sorted. Will let ou know how i get on.
Brian
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Did you check the clutch release bearing fork for damage while it was out?
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I did and it looked ok. The disco 2 had a lot better forks that the disco 1. Still undecided if its my slave cylinder OR still some stubborn air.
Brian
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You've put the friction plate in the right way round haven't you?......the 1st clutch I did 30 odd years ago, I put the plate in the wrong way around...never made that mistake again
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Yep its in the right way.
Looks like the slave cylinder is knackered, it looked a bit rough when we took it off with, there was what looked like some sort of seal could have been a dust seal or maybe something else, hard to tell what it was cos it was also mangled, we discarded the bit and stupidly refitted the slave cylinder so obviously it was something important lol
I've ordered a new one so should have it sorted in a day or so.
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They can be a PITA to bleed, I'd bled them from the pipe unions before now. Check if you have the clutch damper too, also a pain.
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Well fitted the new slave cylinder and bled the system and it still dont work right.
the clutch pedal feels right but it wont go into gear. If i turn off the engine and pop it into first, press the clutch in and start the engine i can move the car, even with the clutch fully in the car is creeping forward. If i drive off i can change through the gears though i have to pull on the gear lever a bit, if i stop and take it out of gear it wont go back into gear unless i turn the engine off and repeat the above procedure.
Im now at a total loss what to do next, to be honest i'm well fed up .
So far its had a full new 5 peice clutch consisting of
valeo dualmass flywheel
ap clutch plate and cover
ap thrust bearing
spigot bearing
New slave cylinder.
The clutch fork is OK
Gearbox was working fine before shredding incedent apart from a little difficulty getting into reverse which i put down to worn clutch.
Brother reackons that the gearbox oil looks [!Expletive Deleted!] and that could be causing the problems....what do people think? i think not but at this point im open to suggestions. Im going to do the gearbox oil on wekend as it needs done anyway
Has anyone got any suggestions cos im standing here with a can of petrol....which i really cant afford to burn at these prices lol.
Thanks
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What does the gearbox oil smell like n what colour is it and what is the viscosity like
if it's smells like cat pee then it's diff oil which is wrong
in the r380 it should be auto box oil which is red
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dont know its colour but brother reackons it was like water :huh:
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Is the thrust bearing the same depth?
Have you tried pumping the pedal like a loon?
Master cylinder?
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Thrust bearing the same as is the flywheel, pressure plate and friction plate. Measured the new ones against the old befor we fitted them and they were all exactly the same size......well apart from the schredded plate that was hard to measure :)
Pumped the peddle like a loon(neighbours must of thought i was up to something) and since i replaced the slace cylinder the pedal feels as it should, just not fully operating the clutch. Not looked at Master cylinder simply cos they were fine before the little shredding incedent :oops:
I was thinking of replacing it as they arn't that much just to rule it out, Otherwise if its not that im going to have to take the gearbox off AGAIN!!!!!!! to check that ive not done something stupid and i just dont think i can face it
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Without meaning to insult you... has the bell housing mated up all the way around?
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you say you have replaced the clutch slave cylinder, how about the clutch master cylinder??
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you have the slave cylinder the right way up with the bleed nipple at the top id try takin it to a garage with a pressure bleeder an the connectin rod inside the slave isnt bent is it an if its a new one its seated on the clutch fork properley
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Bell housing all mated up, in fact it took us ages to get the gearbox back in and the bell houseing togeather as the waterpipe bracket at the top of engine had dropped down and got in the way, took us a while to spot it lol
Not changed the master cylinder as it was ok prior to the problem, We are going to change it as a list ditch hope before taking the gearbox off to see what is wrong.
We used this 5 peice kit
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LAND-ROVER-DISCOVERY-DEFENDER-TD5-CLUTCH-FLYWHEEL-KITAP-/330376779258?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4cebfd95fa
Anyone else used them, Any problems with the quality.
Someone suggested that it could be a mismatched clutch set with the wrong size bits??
Brian
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Well got microcat to work and it looks like that peice of mangled/melted plastic that i mentioned earlier was a pushrod clip landrover part number 576723 @ cost of £2.30 +vat So just ordered one. Also got a new pushrod while i was at it as the one thats in now is i bit worn on the ball end so may as well do it at the same time.
Its obvious what that little peice of mangled plastic was now ive seen a picture of it
Looks like this clip holds the pushrod in place and stops it sliding out of position and in doing so ensures that the cluch is pushed full in when operated SOOoooooo this could be my problem.....i hope.
Its obvious waht that little peice of mangled plastic was now ive seen a picture of it.
Well let you know what happens once the clip is delivered and fitted.
Brian
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One way i believe is to use long studs made from threaded bar and slide the box back about 4-5 inches and not actually removing it completely from the vehicle, you'd have to rotate the flywheel using the crank pully bolt at the front of the engine to get at all the bolts.......not tried it myself though
That's the way I did my 200Tdi clutch - no ramps required, just used a small trolley jack under the transfer box,
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For anyone who has been following this misery story
I finally got round to fitting the replacement clutch and IT WORKS!!!!!!!!
Shame the first clutch was faulty but thats life i suppose.
Whilst I was at it I fitted an Ashcroft Central Diff Lock lever . Doddle to do, shame about the cost. Can't wait to get to Pea Farm this weekend to try out the clutch AND difflock, Should be almost unstoppable or at least it will be when i make my mind up on which tyres i want
Brian