Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Defender => Topic started by: 90sam on May 29, 2007, 21:41:14
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Hey all,
I don't know if my land rover has any recovery rings/points on the front as standard but would like some! Now i have an a-bar and would like to keep it for the spotlights, but can i just bolt a towbar to my bumper? Or is it too weak. What have other people done? Shall i bother with a winch if im only gonna go off roading when i join a club or with some friends!
Kind Regards
Sam
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you could get a steering guard that has recovery points on them.
i got one from http://www.rebel4x4.co.uk/steering_guards.htm
or you could get some jate rings, cheaper but maybe not the best option.
I use jate rings on the rear, but if ive ever been stuck just use the tow bar on the rear, saves getting very muddy fishing round for them
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Iv'e bolted my recovery points [hook type] stright to the front of the chassis where the jacking points are as the hoops that come as standard are a bit like butter and may pull off easy.As for a winch bepends on how much mud you plan on tackling and if you could get stuck,do a winch corse aswell as it will teach you how to use the dame thing
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I got one of these, bolted on to the bumper around the mounts for added strength, and managed to get pulled from a nice muddy hole the other week without any problems, all it needs is 4 holes drilled and bolted on, it has a monster spreader plate behind as well, either 4 or 6mm not too sure now, loks better than a tow bar I think
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c394/Snooky35/90%20through%20time/DSC00141.jpg)
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I got one of these, bolted on to the bumper around the mounts for added strength, and managed to get pulled from a nice muddy hole the other week without any problems, all it needs is 4 holes drilled and bolted on, it has a monster spreader plate behind as well, either 4 or 6mm not too sure now, loks better than a tow bar I think
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c394/Snooky35/90%20through%20time/DSC00141.jpg)
Where did you buy it from or did you have to make it? It looks very nice by the way 8)
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Not sure of the make but got it from Challenger 4x4 near Aldershot about £40, swivels round as well :wink:
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I used a military spec bumper with the recovery pin in the middle and also have a steering guard with recovery points fitted, this seems to work well enough.
A towball on the front bumper would most probably just bend the bumper.
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Military bumper pin only for towing, not for recovery, military recommend jate rings for recovery.
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If you are going anywhere off road I'd fit a good strong steering guard.. You can get them with recovery points or bolt some jate rings to the chassis.
I have seen some std bumpers bend whilst being recovered :? Not sure how the recovery points were attached to these particular bumpers.
If you are considering a winch then allot of the winch bumpers have recovery points attached to them.
Whatever you do don't forget to tell your insurance company! :roll:
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The bset solution is some respects is to have a recovery point on both sides of the chassis (a bit like Snooky but with another on the other side) and use a long bridale between the 2 to reduce the risk of damaging the chassis during heavy recovery.
The other benefit of having recovery points on both sides is that sometimes it is more benificial to pull from just one side of the front rather than the middle or the other side.
The swivel point like what Snooky has is Britpart IIRC, so availble from most places. Though its not the only on thats avalible, at the moment i can't remeber who else makes them.
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Cripes you guys make this sound complicated and expensive. For most purposes fitting a tow ball to the bumper where it's mounted to the chassis is perfectly adequate. If the bumper is sound and you use a good spreader plate you'll be unlucky to need more.
I've yet to see a bumper bend or a properly mounted (or indeed any) tow ball fail for recovery in any circumstances.
The other bonus is that you can almost always get to the tow ball while jate rings and steering guards can be well hidden in mud.
Mike
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:shock: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Please don't bolt a tow ball to the bumper - it really isn't designed for that kinda load. It'll do for towing but it WILL rip out under heavy loads.
As has been said, the military support the use of jates, and only use the heavily reinforced bumper and pin ofr moving trailers and the like, not recovery. Whilst the military bumper on the racer is ok for towing under the MSA, any heavy recovery would use substantial parts of the vehicle instead.
Be cautious of steering guards with built in recovery points - some of 'em ain't as structural as they could be, too.
Cheers
8)
Eeyore
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use them jate ring things or steering guard, for this week i have herd to many storeys about tow balls being ripped out and almost killing the driver or passnger of the vehicle unlucky enough to be recovering it.
cheers kieran
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The military DO NOT recommend the use of JATE rings for recovery - they are not called lashing/lifting eyes for nothing!
From a purely physics point of view a steering guard bolted on in more than one place each side is still stronger then a JATE ring which in reality is exerting the weight of the pull through 2 thicknesses of chassis steel per side, a guard with only 2 bolts is doubling that.........
Plus, although you shouldn't, I've pulled 110 WOLFs out of some tricky spots on just the bumper and I've never bent one! (just a shame the paint falls off like old folk fall over and the bits outside of the middle are weaker than the door skins :shock: ... Ho hum, cant have it all eh?) :wink:
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Eeyore I have the greatest respect for you but I have never seen a properly fitted tow ball fail nor a sound bumper bend if the tow ball was placed at the end of the chassis.
I've seen an axle ripped off during a recovery via a tow ball.
If you start really high speed snatch recovery using any recovery point you're asking for trouble but I don't think anyone is suggesting that's any sort of plan.
As far as I know MSA is happy with tow balls as recovery points - at least I have never failed scrutineering at any event on that account. Indeed I'm not sure MSA accepts jate rings, I'll take a look at the Blue Book later on.
I'm all for safety but the original post just wanted to know what a sensible front recovery point was and a tow ball fitted with a good spreader plate on a sound bumper is sensible - well IMHO it is.
Now I think of it I can't think of any steering guard I've seen that doesn't have a fairly sharp edge to its so called recovery points or require the use of shackles which the world and his dog seem to disapprove of.
If you're so stuuck you rip off a decently fitted tow ball then boy you're in trouble.
I now await lots of tales of exactly that happening!
Mike
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Just for your information JATE= Joint Air Transport Executive. They design ways of securing loads in aircraft and despatching them from aircraft. The JATE ring is designed as a lashing eye to hold the load down when being transported by air.
Graham
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But to be fair the JATE rings we know and love are far sturdier than simple lashing eyes surely. I thought they were rated at several tones?
Mike
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After-market ones may well be, but the standard Mil-Spec ones aren't. I can look up the exact rating in the bible tomorrow at work, but essentially even the strongest rated rings going are only as strong as the bit of chassis they bolt through. The strains and loads associated with the correct use of JATE rings - i.e. lashing or lifting are vastly different to those involved in pulling and will impart loads onto the chassis in directions that the JATE ring set-up was not designed for.
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So, that rtaher neatly takes us full circle and wondering just what teh best front recovery point is!
My vote still lies with a tow ball with a big spreader plate and the tales of them flying about will probably refer to badly fitted ones.
The steering guards seem to require the use of shackles which everyone says break and fly around. But if you buy correctly rated shackles, properly tested then they shouldn't unless you abuse them. I did some work for a company that undertook this testing and they said get the right kit and you shouldn't have any trouble.
I also did some work for a company who manufactured tow balls and some years ago a batch was made in South Africa as it happened that failed at a higher rate through being too brittle. These were being sold at some cost under all kinds of brand name.
I'd still go with a tow ball for most recovery situations.
Mike
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My money is on a guard and properly rated shackles. Provided its a good quality guard and the shackles are rated and looked after then you should have no problems - I have yet to see a single shackle fail when used correctly in the correct rig and I've lifted/winched anything up to and including planes and Chally tanks..........
Having said that, if you actually do an EP (estimated pull) calculation for the average 'rover stuck in a mud hole' pull you'd prolly find that a WOLF spec bumper and pin or a tow-ball/swivel eye/NATO hithc are perfectly acceptable provided thay are all fitted correctly and as you say, most importantly fitted with a decent spreader plate so as not to rely on the usual landrover bumper mush material.........
This one could go round and round for years though as its a very personal and horses for courses type area..........
Thats my 2p anyway......
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Agreed on all points although as a cheapskate I'd use a tow ball not a steering guard.
Mike
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I don't like Jate rings because they are too far down and under the vehicle, makes it an absolute sod to get shackle on when its actually stuck. Not too keen on tow balls either though as straps and ropes sometimes slip off them.
I'd go for steering guard and shackles provided they are of decent quality/design.
Bearing in mind the forces exerted recovering a 'very' stuck vehicle are much much larger than you think. Kinetic ropes can generate over 12 tons of force.
Nick
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And where will you buy a shackle rated to 12 tonnes? Well I guess 6 tonnes if you use two? Dingocroft do a 6t one at £16 but the pin size is pretty large, will it fit the steering guard.
I'm not being difficult but I think you guys are over complicating this - has anyone ever seen a properly fitted tow ball come away or break during recovery? I know I haven't.
I also found this.
http://www.blitz4x4.org.uk/play_safe.htm
Mike
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Never seen a properly fitted tow ball come away but have seen straps fly off them. It shouldn't be complicated, just got to be sensible about it. The rtv club i used to go to didn't like you using them for this reason.
12 ton shackles are massive, wouldn't fit through most tow points, the shackle isn't the weak point though. Just need to make sure they are decent quality.
Nick
ps anyone got an alternative to shackles, which can be used a bit faster but is still secure. Like a beefy karabineer?
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Given that most clubs I've been out with won't use shackles I'm not sure what you can use then!
Your point about the 12 t shackles was exactly the one I was making. All well and good saying use a steering guard but if you want to accommodate the 12t strain then you need 12t (or two 6t) shackles which isn't really practical.
Mike