Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Defender => Topic started by: Ja1983 on October 06, 2010, 20:46:50
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A big hello to those who remeber the guy with the white Taro/hilux from West Yorks.. I'm now in the North East and having BIG problems with my landy..
The PROBLEM:
When travelling between 40 & 50mph, it only takes the slightest mouse turd in the road to set my front axle shaking so violently it lifts wheels off the road, and snatches the steering wheel back and forth. Begins with a light bit of feedback on the steering wheel, and either settles straight away, or just gets worse.. to the point at which its like a tankslap on a motorbike.
The only way to stop is to lock up the wheels and loose speed (whilst trying to aim for grass/someting soft).
-Only occurs 40mph plus (darent drive faster)
-seems to occur under low acceleration/coasting?
-presently feels to originate from the passenger side, and a slight left bend is usually when it does it. Although it has done it on straights and right handers too.
The VEHICLE
'89 90, 200tdi disco engine, 300 transfer box, Late 300tdi front axle (teflon balls), current tyres road biased 235 85 R16, TD5 front springs, procomp shockers.
The things i've tried
now on its 3rd axle - no play whatsoever in swivels or bearings, no loose mount points, slight play in drive flange (tinks now and then when steering on lock)
Standard panard rod bushes seem fine (changed rod with newer front axle)
fitted new uprated steering damper (britpart cellular jobby)
no play on any ball joints
had 3 sets of wheels/tyres on, no difference
replaced steering box (usual bottom oil seal syndrome)
used callipers that came with new axle, as previous one occasionally pulled to one side
discs are worn, but with no defects other than been a tad slim
tried different drivers, just incase the landy hated me.. it hates other people too!
Last night replaced polybushed radius arms with good used rubber type (that was a pain - those holes do not want to line up!)
when we replaced the damper & the panard rod bushes, it did seem to settle for a while...
Its now doing it every journey.
Done a lot of googling, and usually it seems to be either swivels, panard rod bushes or naff tyres. I've ruled these out and am now so sick, i'm considering the dreaded ebay. This is a landy which is in very good condition for its year, has had a LOT of time and money spent, and is once again coming close to costing me my marriage.
Cant afford to keep replacing things, for it to be not too bad for a month, ANY suggestions, anyone offering help (got a friend with a farm, tools & experience with landys, but 20miles away - cant afford the fuel, the full day, the cost of trial bits only to find its no better)
Any thoughts before I go back down the line of replacing every part again? I'm close to calling a priest and having it excorcised! :evil:
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sounds nasty.... have you checked that the tracking is ok..?? and what about the uj's on the steering shaft from the bulkhead to the box..???
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I'd suggest checking the tracking, steering column UJs and have a general alignment check done too. Failing that you may have to swallow the cost of taking it to a specialist garage to get it sorted out (not your local tyre and brake franchise, they seldom have a clue how to set up Landy steering!)
The problem is that there is so much adjustment in the steering and suspension that you end up chasing the problem around.
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Thanks for the quick reply disco chaps... yesh, very nasty indeed!
Not checked the tracking, as no signs of uneven tyre wear, new axle only has super-market squeal when on full lock - and eyeing up looks close as. cant see it been that far out to cause the issues it is without ripping the edge off tyres or been noisy in the likes of asda carpark.
Not the steering Ujs either, had issues before with them on my disco, always given them a good lube since.. and no stiffness when turning.
It feels as though a wheel has been thrown suddenly out of balance in a huge way..? with a severe wobble been thrown back through the steering.
>>However, i have been out for a stare at it (you know what i mean.. when something wont do wat you want it to do, so you end up stareing at it for 10 mins or so...) and decided that there must be something along the line that was cured, but has returned.. i considered that over the last 12 months, most of the steering componants had been off and on, then off again, so thought i should get the spanners out for one last time, and just check over everything...
:dance:
bottom bolt on the steering box took a half turn, the chassis end panard rod bolts all seemed to take a quarter turn (noticed in the dampness some rusty coloured residue - a sure sign of moevment!) and 2 turns on the end of the steering damper! (chassis end)
>>does anyone else have the big orange britpart cellular damper? do the bushes seem a little soft to you?
took it up and down the road, and it felt different.. and most importantly, didnt try to fling me off into the unergrowth (yet)
I'm going to take it into work tomorrow, so fingers crossed.. could be the slight play in those few areas was enough to shake things up?! Most of all, is this cause or effect? (few loose bits causing steering shake, or shaking causing bits to loosen?)
will let you all know (feel a bit silly if this was it!) :doh:
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I get the same issues with my 90 from time to time, tightening the panyard rod bolts sorts it out.
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I may be totally wrong as its been a long time since i,ve messed with axles and suspension bits.
Are you using the early type trailing arms (c spanners) on a later axle?
IIRC there is a difference in the width of front bushes on the trailing arms, which would mean using early arms and a late axle may not tighten up properly.
Later type arms have a small triangular shape showing sticking out the top by the front bushes.
If there is a gap between the bushes and the axle mounting it could give for a very lively ride :D maybe similar to the experience you had.
Of course I may be just losing my memory and thinking of some other vehicle... :doh:
Gaz
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Have you checked the tyres for signs of wall damage? If one of them has started to develop a sidewall bulge, it can cause wobble. And, of course, it would need changing quickly.
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Are you using the early type trailing arms (c spanners) on a later axle?
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Later type arms have a small triangular shape showing sticking out the top by the front bushes.
If there is a gap between the bushes and the axle mounting it could give for a very lively ride :D maybe similar to the experience you had.
Of course I may be just losing my memory and thinking of some other vehicle... :doh:
Gaz
Something i did not know, however i can confirm that i do have the little triangles, and the bushes are clamped up correctly
Have you checked the tyres for signs of wall damage? If one of them has started to develop a sidewall bulge, it can cause wobble. And, of course, it would need changing quickly.
tried 3 sets of wheels/tyres on, all good straight with no damages
>>Update, since tightening everything up it drove to work, there and back on dinner fine, but threw a wobbler on the way home. I'm going to go over it all again before swapping over the steering damper bushes, as i think the ones that came with the new damper are a bit on the soft side.
Got a new set of tyres ccoming for winter (next 2 week) so will get the tracking checked over then.
I've also seen suggestions for checking oil levels within the swivels, but i though the oil was in the axle, and a "one shot" grease in the swivels?
i noticced also that the drive flange area behind the black cap is very dry and dusty... should there be some form of lube in there?
Thanks for all your replies, i'm desperate to find out what the problem is and get it sorted!
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I had the same fault on my Jimny and it turn out to be panhard rod as I changed it to an extended one but because it was not align correctly it tried to kill me and wobbled like mad, I fitted the standard one back on had it all 4 wheels laser aligned and it was fine.
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im just thinking out loud but with a 200 tdi engine in a 90 does the steering match up because when i bought my 200 tdi 90 the guy was a mechanic and i briefly remember him saying something about different splines so there would be play in the steering
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im just thinking out loud but with a 200 tdi engine in a 90 does the steering match up because when i bought my 200 tdi 90 the guy was a mechanic and i briefly remember him saying something about different splines so there would be play in the steering
EH..........? never heard that one before..........
As far as i'm concerned, the engine is an engine, and the steering is the steering, the only way they are at-all connected is through the PAS pump........... and nothing anywhere has any connection with splines..........
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Don't think I'd be going back to that garage in a hurry - there shouldn't be any play in the steering column at all!
I also can't see why you'd alter the steering with an engine swap, doesn't make any sense to me. The steering on mine is well clear of the engine area (LR offered a V8 in there after all).
The swivels used to use oil in older LRs, they swapped to the "one shot" grease more recently although IIRC you can put either oil or grease in.
Check the front propshaft for play too, on the basis that you've tried everything else.
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I had something similar when I changed the steering damper - hadn't tightened up the nuts enough, hit a cats eye on the motorway at about 60 and the steering wheel started shaking like mad, tightened the nuts up as tight as I could and didn't have an issue after that.
One other thought - have you used new nuts and bolts when you did the bushes? If they were not new it could be that they have stretched the threads and not as tight as you think they should be.
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The problem is called steering kickback and LR were quite aware of it. I heard form one mechanicl mate that LR ended up swapping Disaco steels for alloys free of charge because with 235/70 tyres on the rotating mass lead to the problem.
It's a harmonic vibration in a multiple degree of freedom system, that is to say there are several compliant (springy) parts contributing to the problem.
The panhard rod bush(s)
The radius arm bushes
the steering system, balljoints etc
all of which allow some give, in a harmonic systme these part give thus storing energy, this energy then hets releases at the syetm swing the other way, like a pendullum.
This energy gets absorbed by dampers, these include the steering damper, the swivel preload, the weight of the drag linkm track rod and harmonic dampers bolted to the bottom of the swivels, oh and the tyres!
I've had a similar problem on one of mine.
Adjusting the tracking to toe-out helps lower the frequency of the oscilation and absorb more energy at the expense of "feeling" in the steering.
Lowering the rotating mas of the wheels will make a differnece, smaller tyres or alloy wheels.
Wheel spacers should make the probelm worse but could (I stress could) change the frequency significantly.
Then there are things that can mask the problem.
Heavy duty dampers, I'm not a fan of the cellular ones now, try a ProComp or DeCarbon.
Add a RRC track rod as it has a bracket for a steering damper, you'll also need the bracket on the diff but then you can add a second steering damper. Even an OEM one will make a huge difference.
It may sound odd but stiffening the bushes can make things worse, if you find this don't think you are going mad, I found polybushes made it worse.
I had 3 sets of tyres that did it and one that didn't, sad day when they wore out.
Can't think of any more right now.
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RRB, very interesting thoughts there.... and of course this leads to harmonics vs sinesodial (sp?) action... (and the videos of those two girls demonstrating the difference!)
...could this be why discos have the big donut thing on the axle??
tomo-tdi - you have a mustard bus too! Beige wasnt my first colour choice, but i love it now!
>>>>>>>>>>>UPDATE>>>
Right, i went up to my mates tonight, as i'd borrowed a set of wheels from him, which were known to be fine... that is, apart from an air leek! while i was there, we dug out a set of steering damper bushes (standard) as i was convinced the ones supplied by sh...Britpart were too soft.
While the damper was off, i though i'd just check the action of it......
...it pulled out firm but juddery, and went in with no resistance whatsoever!
This is a brand new "heavy duty" cellular steering damper (thick orange type) which was bought from Paddocks within the last 4 months.
guess who i'm ringing in the morning!
fitted a good second hand damper, and drove home with no drama whatsoever.
Will keep this thread updated, as i'm sure others may have similar problems.
Cant believe all the trouble i've been to just beccause of one crappy "upgrade"
Grrrr... but also really pleased now i seem to have found the problem!
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same problem on our 110 but at 55mph. Know what the problem is now ...snapped the panhard rod bracket on the axle :-(
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haha im no mechanic and i might have misintepreted what he said to me so sorry for any confusion and ja thanks for the compliment when i seen photos before i purchased it i was pricing up paint but now i have the 90 the colour has kinda grown on me is this a standard LR colour or is it like nato something or other so i can order some more for touching up etc?
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nackered rear trailing arm to chassis bushes will do the exact same syptoms as your giving
aswel as making interesting cornering :P
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Ive had the panhard rod mounts wear the holes oval so you can not stop the movement no matter how tight you do the bolts.
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You "should" be able to do them up so that they don't move. The idea is that the bolt grips the unner sleeve and the brakcet together and the bush is then supported on the friction rather than shear force on the bolt. Check the bush isn't collapsing and has a solid sleeve. On some Ford the bush mounts are slotted to allow toe-in settings.
The doughnut under the diff is something to do with NVH in the drivetrain, they appeared on RRC along with the thicker propshafts on the EFi models, though I honeslty couldn't say I could demonstrate their contribution to the world.
In a similar vain though there is a lump of square rod bolted under each swivel pin on the knuckles, this is to dampen the steering action. People who have fitted DAN bars have niticed an improvement in damping due to the extra weight of the bars. For a while on blue I ran with 2 steering dampers, I never found the Defender one as effective although it is less prone to damage.
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Yeas, one of the previous axle had the square bars on the bottom of the swivels, i was wondering if this may help things? (at risk of disturbing the swivels (once touched never seem to be right)
Seems to be doing ok now, havent had any scary experiences since changing the damper.. fingers crossed!
just need to post this knackered one back to paddocks who will send it to britpart to confirm its knackered before they can offer an exchange/refund...
can anyone recommend any good quality steering dampers?
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Yeas, one of the previous axle had the square bars on the bottom of the swivels, i was wondering if this may help things? (at risk of disturbing the swivels (once touched never seem to be right)
Seems to be doing ok now, havent had any scary experiences since changing the damper.. fingers crossed!
just need to post this knackered one back to paddocks who will send it to britpart to confirm its knackered before they can offer an exchange/refund...
can anyone recommend any good quality steering dampers?
i used to run a procomp damper on my comp truck when it used to get used on road,
as unbalanced mach 5 beadlocks and simex used batter the living day lights out of std dampers.
havent even got one now mind, kept bending them
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RRB, very interesting thoughts there.... and of course this leads to harmonics vs sinesodial (sp?) action... (and the videos of those two girls demonstrating the difference!)
Sinusoidal would make you think simple harmonic motion, unfortunately it's multiple degree of freedom system so the harmonic pattern could be quite complicated which make the diagnosis (and cure) quite complicated.
If you think of a weight on a spring, the spring stores energy that accelerates the weight as the spring relaxes, then the weight gains height which stores the energy as the weight slows. Energy is continually transfered between stored (potential) and moving (kinetic).
We all get that, right?
Well possibly what happens in the suspension is that there is more than one "spring", each bush, the suspension, the steering with all it's balljoints and the track rods that can flex etc etc.
So what can happen is that energy can be transfered from "spring" to "spring" or to kinetic energy or both, there may be more than one oscillation and they may have more than one freqency.
Stiffeningf the "spring" may also make things worse, nbot better. Dampers on the other hand absorb this energy and turn it into heat. hence they mask the problem and make it manageable.
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sounds like you have death wobble very nasty
a friend had this and it was a castor problem
hope you sort it out soon mate
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i had a similar problem on my series, have you checked the shims on the passenger side ball joint? if there is one or more there, take one out, see how it goes, take it from top and bottom....if it has a bottom on a 90. just a thought =D
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S**t part S**t part,speaks for its self!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angry:
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Hello again all, yes, been well aquainted with swivel shims... now on 3rd axle with no play at all in swivels or bearings, putting the standard damper on seems to have cured it, as its not done it since.. which reminds me, i still need to post that damper back....!
...and sods law, the steering column ujs have started to stiffen now the weather has turned! cup full of oil on standby...
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Check your chassis is not out of true :(