Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Discovery => Topic started by: Andy. on August 14, 2005, 22:57:57
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Just seen this on ebay, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LANDROVER-DISCOVERY-DEFENDER-FREELANDER-BLACK-SMOKE_W0QQitemZ4568818807QQcategoryZ31348QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem, peoples thoughts please :?:
It mentions about the EGR plate, will my 93 200 series have one of these :?:
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I believe the 200 engines did not have EGR at all, only being introduced during 300 engine production.
Perhaps a 'question for seller' - does he sell genuine snake oil too? :wink: (my personal opinion only of course!)
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ROFL
8 quid for a ball bearing to wedge the valve open :-)
Clearly this genius also doesn't understand the concept of tubo-lag either... since apparently this ball bearing will remove all the effects of that too.
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I just removed my EGR unit, replacing it with a £2 LR blanking plate on the manifold. Then replaced the top intercooler-inlet manifold pipes & tube with a single pipe. Job done and bit more space in the engine bay! :wink:
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I just removed my EGR unit, replacing it with a £2 LR blanking plate on the manifold. Then replaced the top intercooler-inlet manifold pipes & tube with a single pipe. Job done and bit more space in the engine bay! :wink:
Does this work? Are there any side-effects such as increased NOx in the emissions? I've alwyas thought of doing this to stop the smoke when I pull away hard from a roudabout but I've been worried that when the MOT comes around it will fail the emission on something else. The EGR valve must have been put there for a reason.
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James,
I have done this to my TD5 as well.
The main side effect is that your engine will be breathing clean air and the inlet manifold won't be getting gunged up with oily residue.
As for emissions, I don't believe that NOx is currently part of the MOT, so nothing to worry about there.
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Sounds good to me. Where do I get a blanking plate from, and what exactly needs to be done to the intercooler manifold and pipes?
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blanked off my EGR sometime ago with a home made steel plate/gasket between the valve and the manifold - it all still looks the same as it did originally.
just passsed another mot with no problems.
benefits are:
that the gunge in the inlet manifold seems to be disppearing
it used to blue-ish smoke if let on idle for ages then revved - this has stopped
it now performs beter at low revs , especially when cold.
as for the nox,co2 - dunno.
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Sounds good to me. Where do I get a blanking plate from, and what exactly needs to be done to the intercooler manifold and pipes?
The blanking plate is LR Part No ERR4698 and the gasket is ERR7173.
I got a set of silicon hoses from Alli-Sport so that made the job easier, other than that then you could get another long rubber pipe for the intercooler and cut the metel pipe so you retain the bend in it but loose the "T" section to the EGR valve.
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my small egr hose and the wiring is still on there
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A bit of scouting around on the web and it seems that the part number for the intercooler to manifold hose that is needed when taking the EGR out is ESR2309. Trouble is, can't find somewhere that stocks all three bits to make up one order.
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James,
Just to add a bit of information..... The EGR valve mods won't have a huge effect on black smoke when you are accelerating hard off something like a roundabout.
This is (usually) a symptom of turbo lag...
On a diesel engine with all mechanical control like the 200 and most 300 tdi engines, the turbo is operated by the exhaust gas in the exhaust manifold. When you put your foot down hard, the injection pump throws a load more fuel into the system to make the engine go faster... because it is powered from the exhaust, and as such the boost is related to the engine revs, the turbo doesn't work any harder until the engine spins faster... so there is a slight delay in the boost increase as the engine comes up to speed. This is turbo lag... you often hear people talking about the turbo 'kicking-in'... this is when the boost pressure gets up enough to help the engine run faster and the power spirals upwards.
Now.. in the time between you hitting the pedal, and the turbo spinning up, there is an excess of fuel in the system... not all of this fuel is burnt in the cylinders because there isn't sufficient air from the inlet system to match the increased amount.... this shows up as a sooty cloud of smoke from the exhaust.
Hope that makes some sense !
There are some funky ways to negate turbo lag.. but they are all quite expensive ;-)
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and just to add to the last
the black smoke can be controled in the fuel pump 200tdi at top of pump if you prize open the cap with a small screwdriver you will see a lock nut holding a screewable thread if you unlock and screw thread in clockwise this will increase/decrease smoke or unburnt fuel as the end of the thread is what the diaphram pushes up and down on under the 4 bolts on the top
i have a full bore exhaust and uprated intercooler and if you have a play around a bit with your fuel pump just remeber to mark things so you can revert to original settings
so inside fuel pump is a spring a washer and a diapham on the top is a little punch mark this shows basically the position of the needle mine was set at about 12 oclock standing from the wing is now after much playing about and trying differnt things is set at about 2 oclock and i have turned my smoke right down and have got rid of the washer altogether as this restricts the amount of fuel flow my top end is about 120 at moment and gets to 60 very fast with a climb from 80-95 on a very steep motorway hill passing every think result is empty tank quicker but if driven under normal cicumtances she very good but alot fun with extra touqe and power ofroading i get fuel burning when neede and not alot smoke hope this helps regards colin
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This link (http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/more_power/Power_ve.htm) will come in handy for explaining things if you want to play with the injector pump. :wink:
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James,
Just to add a bit of information..... The EGR valve mods won't have a huge effect on black smoke when you are accelerating hard off something like a roundabout.
This is (usually) a symptom of turbo lag...
On a diesel engine with all mechanical control like the 200 and most 300 tdi engines, the turbo is operated by the exhaust gas in the exhaust manifold. When you put your foot down hard, the injection pump throws a load more fuel into the system to make the engine go faster... because it is powered from the exhaust, and as such the boost is related to the engine revs, the turbo doesn't work any harder until the engine spins faster... so there is a slight delay in the boost increase as the engine comes up to speed. This is turbo lag... you often hear people talking about the turbo 'kicking-in'... this is when the boost pressure gets up enough to help the engine run faster and the power spirals upwards.
Now.. in the time between you hitting the pedal, and the turbo spinning up, there is an excess of fuel in the system... not all of this fuel is burnt in the cylinders because there isn't sufficient air from the inlet system to match the increased amount.... this shows up as a sooty cloud of smoke from the exhaust.
Hope that makes some sense !
There are some funky ways to negate turbo lag.. but they are all quite expensive ;-)
Thanks Tim, that makes perfect sense to me. Also explains why the car only smokes under exactly the conditions that you described. The rest of the time its fine after the initial startup. What causes the (smaller) plume of smoke when I first turn the engine over? Is it also unburnt diesel or is it oil?
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There are some funky ways to negate turbo lag.. but they are all quite expensive ;-)
So blowing down the snorkel doesn't work then ?
well, there goes my reasoning for sticking my head out of the window :D
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Thanks Tim, that makes perfect sense to me. Also explains why the car only smokes under exactly the conditions that you described. The rest of the time its fine after the initial startup. What causes the (smaller) plume of smoke when I first turn the engine over? Is it also unburnt diesel or is it oil?
Depends on the colour. If it is black, then it's pretty much the same thing... the engine turns with fuel going in and it doesn't all spark up straight away..
If it is blue, then it is likely a seal or ring just weeping a bit but as long as it all goes away, then it's not really anything to worry about.
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So blowing down the snorkel doesn't work then ?
well, there goes my reasoning for sticking my head out of the window :D
Well... I was thinking more along the lines of multi-turbos or variable-geometry turbos..... but I see an experiment coming on :-)
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I have to say that since I had the Allisport intercooler fitted and the EGR removed, the car has been smoky. Exactly as described earlier under turbo lag. I have wicked back the smoke screw 2.5 turns which has improved this slightly. I may turn it back a little further though I am not sure this will improve things too much. It passed the MOT in July with no trouble so I suppose I shouldn't worry too much, though I hate pumping out clouds of smoke...
My centre silencer has started to rattle so I am looking to replace with a straight through system (maybe stainless). I am going to the LRO show in Malvern at the end of August so there maybe a special deal to be had then (I hope!)
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DOES A NON-CAT EXHAUST NOT FAIL THE MOT IF YOUR VEHICLES AGE REQUIRES A CAT?
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DOES A NON-CAT EXHAUST NOT FAIL THE MOT IF YOUR VEHICLES AGE REQUIRES A CAT?
Yes, but the likes of Rimmer Bros make a stainless sports system for the 300 TDi than goes from the Cat back so the cat remains in the system.
The likes of my 1995 300 TDi had a cat fitted but is not of an age where it is required for the MOT on a diesel so when it needed replacing I had the non-cat downpipe fitted. Much cheaper option :D
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DOES A NON-CAT EXHAUST NOT FAIL THE MOT IF YOUR VEHICLES AGE REQUIRES A CAT?
Yes, but the likes of Rimmer Bros make a stainless sports system for the 300 TDi than goes from the Cat back so the cat remains in the system.
The likes of my 1995 300 TDi had a cat fitted but is not of an age where it is required for the MOT on a diesel so when it needed replacing I had the non-cat downpipe fitted. Much cheaper option :D
That's worth knowing. Does that apply to all of 1995 (mine's an M) ?
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My 95 300tdi which originally had a cat fitted has now passed 2 MOTs without one. As long as the fuel pump is set right you shouldn't have any problems...
My cat is still in the loft should I ever need it in the future.
I am after a replacement centre section with no silencer at the moment. Normally the middle and rear section are sold as one part with 2 silencers, but I just want to remove the centre box so I end up with a "sports" exhaust system.
Si
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That's worth knowing. Does that apply to all of 1995 (mine's an M) ?
I don't know the exact date that the requirement came in, best speak to your local MOT chap and see if he knows but I think it was mid 1995 or something. :?
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August 1995 it seems.
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That would make sence, N reg onwards then. :?
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AFAIK the "cat" on a 300tdi isnt actually a cat,its just a particle collector which catchs the larger particles of soot,seen a few now that have started smoking really bad & its been that that has been choked solid,fit a new down pipe without the collector & the motor goes fine again
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DOES A NON-CAT EXHAUST NOT FAIL THE MOT IF YOUR VEHICLES AGE REQUIRES A CAT?
My 1998 TDi has just gone through it's 2nd MOT without problem and without a CAT fitted. Emissions were fine too.
The exhaust on my Disco is made up of a Defender down pipe (no flexible hose to rot), and no CAT. It costs about £130 front to back, fitted!
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Often oil in the turbo , a little normally get past the seal when its been stood. The reason why the turbo doesn' repond to the increase in fueling is that it isn' exhaust gas that makes it spin. THe turbo spins as a result of heat,thats why it lags more when the engine is clock cold.
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The reason why the turbo doesn' repond to the increase in fueling is that it isn' exhaust gas that makes it spin. THe turbo spins as a result of heat,thats why it lags more when the engine is clock cold.
:? Can you explain that in a bit more detail ?
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I always thought it was the exhaust gasses passing over the fins on the turbo's drive fan that drove it, hence the increase in boost pressure as the revs increase. :?
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Often oil in the turbo , a little normally get past the seal when its been stood. The reason why the turbo doesn' repond to the increase in fueling is that it isn' exhaust gas that makes it spin. THe turbo spins as a result of heat,thats why it lags more when the engine is clock cold.
NOPE:lol:
The turbo is driven by the exhaust gasses exiting the system,the reason you have lag is to get more go you need more in,to get more in you need more coming out to drive the turbo,thus thens spins it up & pushes more in,did a talk on this for a module at college but cant fiind anything that would be useful to abny 1 else
Basically the gasses coming out drive the turbo spinning it up & pushing more in
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:oops: Read below, perhaps they need a new module??Seems your colege stuff wasnt entirely accurate but then again neither was i. After speaking to a mate who has worked on F1 ans BSB he said as shown below that the spin up is a result of both gas volume and heat! heat being the Key ingredient.....as shown below from an american turbo theory site
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SCROLL DOWN TO BOTTOM OF PAGE FOR LINKS TO MORE PAGES
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TURBO THEORY
The larger the compressor and the higher the pressure (boost) we want, the quicker the power from the exhaust turbine is used up. Put in a larger exhaust turbine and it will take the engine longer to develop enough hot expanding exhaust gas to spin it, slowing down the compressor and causing turbo lag. At this point I am going to repeat something stated earlier, do not think of a turbo charger as a bolt on piece of equipment, think of it as a system.
The turbine is powered by hot expanding exhaust gas, a lot of hot expanding exhaust gas, the more and the hotter the expanding exhaust gas the better. I am sure many of you have seen pictures of turbo charged engines with cherry red hot exhaust systems and turbo housings
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Turbos spin due to gas expansion into manifold, and hence turbo!
Heat is the culprit which makes it spin, not any volume of gas.
A hot motor will suffer less turbo lag than a clock cold motor.
Heat expansion is the key!
to reduce turbo lag, use a turbo with a lower A/R ratio(clearance of rotor to housing it runs in)
or generally a smaller lighter turbo.
Top end performance will suffer then though.
Some form of dump valve(recirculating is even better) will keep turbine speed up, allowing the turbo to 'spool up' quicker.
Rollazuki :D
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I think we are getting a little confused with our terminology here...
Yes... heat plays a big part in turbo operation because expanding gas creates gas flow, and gas flow turns the turbine.....
So... exhaust gas turns the turbine... by virtue of the fact that it is expanding and creating gas flow.... more heat creates faster gas flow and as such the lag effect is reduced.
Turbos don't operate on heat... they operate on gas flow.
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why then does the turbo spin up quicker when the engine is warm. The volume of exhast is the same if the engine has been running for 5 seconds or 3 days at the same rpm.
Anyone who had a td knows that they are sluggish as hell untill the engine is warm and it is nothing to do with oil viscosity before anyone throws that in.... :?:
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So... exhaust gas turns the turbine... by virtue of the fact that it is expanding and creating gas flow.... more heat creates faster gas flow and as such the lag effect is reduced.
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Not sure what the argument here is really... the turbocharger uses a gas turbine to make it work. All we seem to be discussing is how the heat build up affects the speed at which the turbine is propelled.
Boyle's Law, amongst other things, will explain why a hot gas through a fixed aperture creates more gas flow.
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I thought Boyles law was simply a way of calculating the volume of gas at a particular pressure - at a fixed temperature.
eg; p1v1=p2v2.
got nothing to do with expansion of gas as a result of heat.
Charles law deal with heat in gases , you mught be able to use the ideal gas law - PV = nRT
but i have no idea how..
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Time out, If youre gonna start talking physics, Im on my way........ :?
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You are absolutely right, and it was a bit of an abstract example... what I was getting at is that there is a relationship between the temperature of the gas and it's volume.. and hence its rate of flow through a given aperture.
Bear with me... it's been a few years since I did thermodynamics and I'm a bit rusty ! <potters off to brush up on adiabatic and isothermal theory>
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Diabetic what.......
Its insulin you need..........
:shock:
Lets just put turbocharger operation down to the black magic that makes the rest of the engine work, (bit like the smoke that is contained within wires)
As far as the widget goes that stops black smoke(isnt that where we began) If it affects the EGR valve, all its doin is allowing the engine to breath 100% fresh air(not tainted with Re-burnt exh gasses) This will make the engine run cleaner and with more power, but allow the exhaust gas to build up NOX(oxides of nitrogen). Why bother, just put a blank over the egr and have done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rollazuki(seeking power in the face of emissions regulations!)
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This link (http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/more_power/Power_ve.htm) will come in handy for explaining things if you want to play with the injector pump. :wink:
Does this relate directly to a 300TDi, or is it for info/guidance only?
Is it worth doing these adjustments without upgrading the intercooler?
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Gords,
Although the site is for the Dodge Ram, the 200 & 300 TDi's use the same injection pump as the Ram so the alterations relate directly to them and they will work with the standard intercooler, although the amount of alteration required will be less. :D
Do a little adjustment at a time and test the results is the best way to go, and make a note of what you've done so you can put it back to standard if it doesn't work!! I would work on one thing at a time, start with the diaphram, then the smoke screw, then the star wheel. I've only played with these 3 as that was enough for me, it started smoking too much when I had a go with the screw on the back of the pump so I put it back to normal.
The one that's easiest to do is the diaphram, if you have the standard intercooler then turn the diaphram no more than 90 degrees and see what a difference it makes. If it smokes too much then turn it back a little. :wink: