Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Defender => Topic started by: Bob696 on January 16, 2007, 22:45:29
-
sorry for the caps in the title ...copy n paste makes you lazy :?
OK on with the question
My rear diff appears to be on the way out (probably got a fair bit of time in it yet though) and I am thinking of saving my pennies up to get one of the above.
So what are peoples thoughts on them?
Worth the money?
Are they easy to fit?
-
I've got a Detroit rear locker and a Truetrac front in my Rangie. Well pleased with them so far. Hardly notice them there. Putting the Truetrac in the front helped to "balance" the car out a bit due to the fact the rear was a little bit lively on greasy roundabouts (using a heavy foot) with just the rear locker. I have to say the Rangie drives better now than as standard.
Can't help with the "easy to put in" question. Fitting the diff assemblies is a piece of cake, but I didn't build the diffs up because of changing ratios at the same time.
Verdict, well worth the money and effort.
-
lively in roundabouts :lol:
when I had a lockrite in the zook I took it out and flogged it. It was awfull
ARB's all the way
-
I have ARB, love them. Sometimes a full on locker is too much, but as I've never driven one and there are plenty of folks around who like them, I'm not going to put them down.
-
If you've ever replaced one of your own diffs, thats how easy it is to put a detroit or truetrac in..
Ive got both in my 90 and its fantastic..
-
www.crown-diffs.com He's your man for lockers detroit or arb nice guy called steve probably the cheapest around too :lol:
-
That's who I used for mine...Steve is a top bloke and does a good job.
-
Has anybody got experiance of just using truectracs in the rear and if so what differance did it make? particularly on (grassy) side slopes.
-
Good question. I'd like to know the answer too please.
-
I ran for a year with a tru-trac in the rear - helped traction. Makes your 2 wheel drive (assuming centre diff locked) into an almost 3 wheel drive vehicle. Adding a front one and getting the hang of left foot braking makes it *very* capable....
Wet grass and side slopes were a little more approachable, but it's also down to tyre choice and angle of approach... a tru-trac won't make the vehicle perform any better if the driver can't pick the right line, it might help you get more stuck tho' ;-)
-
Thanks for the info Neil.
Does the LSD act as an open diff in normal circumstances where you suddenly lose grip in one wheel and it's then spins relentlessly with the LSD never actually engaging?
Will it always engage or is it a case of almost every time having to left foot brake to bring the torque into the other wheel.
I've always understood the principle but never experienced the theory.
-
Left foot braking is used to bring a front tru-trac in earlier than you'd expect. When there is a mismatch between the rotations the LSD will do it's business - remember an LSD is not a true locker - it is limited :-) However - when the going gets boggy it will run all 4 wheels :-)
-
A true trac isn't an LSD though is it, not in the traditional sense. It's an Auto Torque Biasing diff, which is different. As I understand (please jump in if you know) the ATB runs like a conventional diff unless one wheel spins out, then it biases torque flow to the slower wheel, up to 3 or 5 times depending on the model of diff, but not all the torque, hence the left foot thing. I would have liked one for my sister as I understand that they drive like a normal car, even on slippery roads unless you wheel spin badly. Detroit lockers can make things worse on an icy road (it says so in the instructions :roll: ).
Still trying to get my head round how an ATB actually works.
-
Just bought a pair of true tracs...i will report back when they're fitted and i've tried them :lol:
-
I've fitted ARBs front and raer and this is easy also. the added bounce of teh air is you can pump up your tyres! Also makes a love boy racer PIsssssssssssssssttttttt. haha yes ok thats the only reason i bought them :lol: :lol: :roll:
On a more serious note work a treat lock them as and when you need them! wicked!
-
Just a question...
Why would you want a LSD or ATB system that may or may not engage when you do or don't want them too :-s :-k :?:
Why not go for a positive locking diff that you control...not the gound or your left footed braking :?:
...I'll get my coat :roll: :!:
-
I tell ya, auto lockers are the devils own invention. I swear they only exist cos people think they cant afford ARB's or similar.
Save up for another 2 or 3 months and buy an ARB. You will thank me for the advice. Itll be worth the wait, to avoid the crunching and grinding you are gonna get from the rear axle from the nasty 'ol auto locker, and the limited life expectancy of its internals.
Honest.
-
Well i bet what puts most people of is the price of 1 air locker and then having to buy a compresser and then wiring the compresser in and then getting the air line to your diff and then drilling a hole in your axle case..... LSD same as changing a diff.
I wouldnt say no to a set of ARB lockers but i would say no for the near £1000 price tag for having 2 of them in.
-
Could use a Kam locker. If you don't want the extra ability a compresser provides.
-
Devon 4x4 supplied me a second hand salisbury disc braked back axle complete with a new ARB in it, when I swopped from drum braked rear axle. I fitted the axle & compressor myself, neither of which require a degree in rocket science :-s
OK ARB may not be the cheapest but I have the peice of mind that the diff is locked when I want it to lock...plus I have an onboard compressor. :P
:twisted:
-
arbs are easy peasy and simply the better option than a detroit
just cos the arbs are air dont make um complicated
ive built up 2 arbs into diffs, fitted them into the axles and had them un and running all on sunday
its easy
and when you want a std diff in tricky woods...not get pushed forwards...you can..then lock it at flick of a switch
sorry
but im same as rolla ARB
KAM's are leccy...leccy and water dont mix very well, yes ino the solenoid end everything is sealed to some extent...but what happens when water gets into the axles ?
-
Just to clear up a few points about the different types of diffs used in 4x4s
ARB (manual locker) - Normally an open diff like standard, but on demand locks the wheels causing both wheels on one axle to rotate at the same speed. This sends up to 100% of the torque to either wheel.
Detroit locker - The name is miss leading, In normal action they are locked. When you turn a corner one side at a time can unlock and over run, so when you turn a corner only the inside wheel is driven (unless you have wheel spin in which case the outside won't over run and lock). A more accurate name might be a ‘Detroit unlocker’.
LSD - Limited slip, typically friction plates connected between each output from the differential to the input of the differential. This means that a minimum torque is delivered to both wheel. To make it driveable on the road the maximum torque that can be sent to one wheel (whilst the other is spinning) is not much compared to locking diffs, but enough to help in difficult terrain.
Detroit Truetrac (Torque biasing diff) - these typically use friction gears between the 2 outputs in place of the bevel gears found in open diffs. They have an inbuilt torque bias so the wheel with the most resistance receives 3 to 5 times the torque delivered to the wheel with least resistance. Using left foot breaking increase the resistance of a spinning wheel delivering more torque to the wheel with traction.
Viscous couplings (as fitted in later RRC) - This works as an open diff with a fluid that is thickened by a difference of speed between the outputs. The greater the speed difference, the more viscous the fluid becomes, increasing resistance between the outputs.
The reason I asked about a Truetracs on side slopes is that I've heard that the locked action of Detroit lockers and normal LSD can cause the car to crab down a slope compared to either a standard open diff or unlocked manual diff. I wanted to know if the Truetrac was going to reduce the current vehicles performance on side slopes.
-
it depends how good a driver you are :wink:
and yes true tracks are very misleading...most people think they are open and lock up...nope...thats why i hate them
back to subject
ive found out after experimenting that its best on sidslopes with both front and rear diff's unlocked ... i.e std
with all 4 locked ive ended up down an embankment into a tree cos i had them locked up
so in a nutshell
i find std open diffs win on side slopes
but terrain plays a big part aswel as driver
-
ARB FTW
-
Well i bet what puts most people of is the price of 1 air locker and then having to buy a compresser and then wiring the compresser in and then getting the air line to your diff and then drilling a hole in your axle case..... LSD same as changing a diff.
I wouldnt say no to a set of ARB lockers but i would say no for the near £1000 price tag for having 2 of them in.
thats just you convincing yourself not to fit them,
there is a reason that nearly all the competitors on the OBC Oz use ARB's :wink::wink::wink:
-
ARB for me - had one on the rear of my 90 for 3 yrs now and its fine
you can bring it in exactly when you need it real easily, that can help you turn easier on the slippy stuff when a locked axle just wants to send you forwards.
not so sure about how useful a front one would be and would consider an LSD for that.
-
Well i bet what puts most people of is the price of 1 air locker and then having to buy a compresser and then wiring the compresser in and then getting the air line to your diff and then drilling a hole in your axle case..... LSD same as changing a diff.
I wouldnt say no to a set of ARB lockers but i would say no for the near £1000 price tag for having 2 of them in.
thats just you convincing yourself not to fit them,
there is a reason that nearly all the competitors on the OBC Oz use ARB's :wink::wink::wink:
I'd love ARB's on my rangie. I'm sure they're an amazing piece of kit and I'd have a set right now if I could, but I can think of 1000 reasons not to fit them. (each reason looks like a pound coin :wink: )
-
keep your ears and eyes open great deal do pop up from members on here i got my and a Unbelieve price. thanx again you know who you are!
-
Well i bet what puts most people of is the price of 1 air locker and then having to buy a compresser and then wiring the compresser in and then getting the air line to your diff and then drilling a hole in your axle case..... LSD same as changing a diff.
I wouldnt say no to a set of ARB lockers but i would say no for the near £1000 price tag for having 2 of them in.
thats just you convincing yourself not to fit them,
there is a reason that nearly all the competitors on the OBC Oz use ARB's :wink::wink::wink:
I'd love ARB's on my rangie. I'm sure they're an amazing piece of kit and I'd have a set right now if I could, but I can think of 1000 reasons not to fit them. (each reason looks like a pound coin :wink: )
The trouble is ARBs are too good compared to the rest of your land rover axle.
I can think of a further 1090 reasons not to fit them and that doesn't include the extra 790 reasons for diff peging and ring/pinions.
-
Well i bet what puts most people of is the price of 1 air locker and then having to buy a compresser and then wiring the compresser in and then getting the air line to your diff and then drilling a hole in your axle case..... LSD same as changing a diff.
I wouldnt say no to a set of ARB lockers but i would say no for the near £1000 price tag for having 2 of them in.
thats just you convincing yourself not to fit them,
there is a reason that nearly all the competitors on the OBC Oz use ARB's :wink::wink::wink:
You misunderstood what I was trying to say.
The guy was asking about lockers so I was explaining what extras you have to do to fit an Air Locker...
As I stated at the end of my post I wouldn’t say no to a set if the price was cheaper. As not everyone can throw thousands of pounds at a land rover with out there "other half" chewing there ear off
-
Well i bet what puts most people of is the price of 1 air locker and then having to buy a compresser and then wiring the compresser in and then getting the air line to your diff and then drilling a hole in your axle case..... LSD same as changing a diff.
I wouldnt say no to a set of ARB lockers but i would say no for the near £1000 price tag for having 2 of them in.
thats just you convincing yourself not to fit them,
there is a reason that nearly all the competitors on the OBC Oz use ARB's :wink::wink::wink:
I'd love ARB's on my rangie. I'm sure they're an amazing piece of kit and I'd have a set right now if I could, but I can think of 1000 reasons not to fit them. (each reason looks like a pound coin :wink: )
The trouble is ARBs are too good compared to the rest of your land rover axle.
I can think of a further 1090 reasons not to fit them and that doesn't include the extra 790 reasons for diff peging and ring/pinions.
my axles arnt pegged and never will be...reason being....i dont have 300+bhp under the bonnet and never will :roll:
people always think you need a diff pegging when you dont because you simply dont have the hp under the bonnet
as for shafts, thats the same as a detroit or any other
it all comes down to cost....but ask adam (discov-8) how long it took him to break his detroit :roll: not long at all :shock:
id rather spend the extra pounds on a diff i can control, and one that wont break when the going gets tuff
-
Well i bet what puts most people of is the price of 1 air locker and then having to buy a compresser and then wiring the compresser in and then getting the air line to your diff and then drilling a hole in your axle case..... LSD same as changing a diff.
I wouldnt say no to a set of ARB lockers but i would say no for the near £1000 price tag for having 2 of them in.
thats just you convincing yourself not to fit them,
there is a reason that nearly all the competitors on the OBC Oz use ARB's :wink::wink::wink:
You misunderstood what I was trying to say.
The guy was asking about lockers so I was explaining what extras you have to do to fit an Air Locker...
As I stated at the end of my post I wouldn’t say no to a set if the price was cheaper. As not everyone can throw thousands of pounds at a land rover with out there "other half" chewing there ear off
pmsl...dont tell her :wink:
as for price...pick the fone up and sweet talk liz or shelly the price will soon drop :lol: a mike :twisted:
-
my axles arnt pegged and never will be...reason being....i dont have 300+bhp under the bonnet and never will :roll:
people always think you need a diff pegging when you dont because you simply dont have the hp under the bonnet
as for shafts, thats the same as a detroit or any other
it all comes down to cost....but ask adam (discov-8) how long it took him to break his detroit :roll: not long at all :shock:
id rather spend the extra pounds on a diff i can control, and one that wont break when the going gets tuff
You don't need 300hp to break a diff. Torque is the critical value, if you increse the gear ratio (make vehicle slower) then for a given power you will increase the toque transmitted through the axle. I will agree though that most land rovers don't generate enough torque to need pegging.
Tell me more about the detroit you mention, the only time i've heard of one breaking was because it had been machined after manufacture, weakening it.
As for shafts, it does depending a bit how its driven. With an locked diff you can end up with 100% of the torque being transmited through one halfshaft. With LSD or torque biasing diffs it is practicall impossible to transmit all the torque through one halfshaft meaning they are less likely to break, with a truetrac maximum toruque that can be transmitted through one halfshaft is about 83% (5:1 torque bias).
Don't think I'm a detroit man or have a bias towards any one type diff. I just prefere to understand the pros and cons of all avalible alternatives.
-
I have to admit i have friends who run ARB's on their range rovers and they are simply fantastic. Tough as hell to.
I have never run a detroit etc however when i looked into them i could not believe they are nuturally locked!!!!! Surelly that is a recipe for disa#ster on road. I would expect tyre scrubbing, poor handling and much increased wear.
Also i cant see how they can reliably unlock and yet be suitable off road. Have never used one so cant really comment however can say that ARB's are simply excellent.
-
my axles arnt pegged and never will be...reason being....i dont have 300+bhp under the bonnet and never will :roll:
people always think you need a diff pegging when you dont because you simply dont have the hp under the bonnet
as for shafts, thats the same as a detroit or any other
it all comes down to cost....but ask adam (discov-8) how long it took him to break his detroit :roll: not long at all :shock:
id rather spend the extra pounds on a diff i can control, and one that wont break when the going gets tuff
You don't need 300hp to break a diff. Torque is the critical value, if you increse the gear ratio (make vehicle slower) then for a given power you will increase the toque transmitted through the axle. I will agree though that most land rovers don't generate enough torque to need pegging.
Tell me more about the detroit you mention, the only time i've heard of one breaking was because it had been machined after manufacture, weakening it.
As for shafts, it does depending a bit how its driven. With an locked diff you can end up with 100% of the torque being transmited through one halfshaft. With LSD or torque biasing diffs it is practicall impossible to transmit all the torque through one halfshaft meaning they are less likely to break, with a truetrac maximum toruque that can be transmitted through one halfshaft is about 83% (5:1 torque bias).
Don't think I'm a detroit man or have a bias towards any one type diff. I just prefere to understand the pros and cons of all avalible alternatives.
if your saying that a arb needs to be pegged then thats the same for a truetrack aswel
i do understand the basic theorys behind this lot, yes your right about at times 100% of drive is through 1 shaft, and ive had it pleant of times, thats why ive got ashcroft shafts
to save squabbling anymore let cut to the chase
a detroit is only good if you want to fit and forget
a arb is there so you can choose when you need it
id rather chose IMO as sometimes a locked diff is a hindrence more than help as disco v8 wil vouch
as for his breakage, i cant remember for my life what he broke but it cost him in the region of 100 pound to rectify
i am not bias but i chose arb because they do what i want, ok there are kam which come with shafts ect ect, but the leccy part put me off some what :?
now sorry to the origional poster for all this mither over 1 simple question
but ho hum :twisted:
ARB nuff said :lol:
dan
-
At the end of the day dude, you have to read the posts and decide if you want to follow the majority, or go for the cheap option :lol:
Hand on heart, save up a few more months, Give your wife some good 'ol lovin' so she doesnt grumble, and go ARB.
:wink:
-
I bought my ARBs from Dom, who used them, shall we say enthusiastically?
My truck is pretty heavy too but I've never bust anything yet either, even though I can now do pretty neat doughnuts, on private land of course.
As for sideslopes, that's one reason I rewired the supplied loom so that I can engage the front end without the back end, sometimes a locked up diff will make things worse not better. On at least one occasion I have had so little grip that just trying to drive the car caused it to slip into a ditch. get you mates to tow you or break out the winch.
-
bob now you have read all the replies
would you like a couple of anadins :lol:
-
Air Lockers is the way to go, have this fitted to 1 of my Paj's and it has never been stuck.
LSD on the other and apart from green laning, wouldnt want to risk getting anywhere really boogy.
90 is standard open and isnt running yet so cant compare it, but if i fit lockers they will be Air operated.
-
Air Lockers is the way to go, have this fitted to 1 of my Paj's and it has never been stuck.
LSD on the other and apart from green laning, wouldnt want to risk getting anywhere really boogy.
90 is standard open and isnt running yet so cant compare it, but if i fit lockers they will be Air operated.
you obv aint trying then :twisted:
-
Air Lockers is the way to go, have this fitted to 1 of my Paj's and it has never been stuck.
LSD on the other and apart from green laning, wouldnt want to risk getting anywhere really boogy.
90 is standard open and isnt running yet so cant compare it, but if i fit lockers they will be Air operated.
you obv aint trying then :twisted:
Wont get the chance now SWMBO has decided that one was hers as it was to good to off road!!