Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Defender => Topic started by: nosnibod on June 27, 2006, 20:34:02
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I'm seriously thinking about swapping my 2004 110 XS for a well-sorted 300TDI 110 Station Wagon from somewhere like Foleys.
After experiencing the frustrating TD5 oil in the loom problem (yes I know it was supposedly fixed in post 2002 ones, but believe me, it hasn't) it's made me realise that a TD5 isn't likely to be the long-term ownership proposition I was hoping for.
I've spent a lot of time and £££ on the XS, but I'm thinking of a refurbished 300TDI, galvanised chassis & bulkhead, minimal electronics etc.
In terms of cost then it's likely to be a more-or-less straight swap between a two-year old TD5 and a ten year old refurbished 300TDI.
What do people think, am I mad or what?
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I think you are mad, i've driven 200Tdi 300Tdi and TD5's and seriously wouldnt consider one of the earler engines over the TD5...ever!
If you had oil in the loom you were unlucky, but as its fixed why bother changing? The TD5 has bags of torque in all the right places and is more powerful and more tunable than a 300Tdi, treat it right and it'll last just as long if not longer too.
You'd be nuts to change it for an older vehicle!
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Ok here you are.......straight swap.........You're mental
Only joking mate :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ah sorry it's a 110 you want, although the offer's there!!!!!!!
Jeff
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Yep - completely barking !!!!!
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Driven a TD5 ... I'll stick to my 200Tdi thank you very much ..... even I can fix most of it when it breaks.
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Sorry Dave, but I'm gonna agree with you!
I'd rather have a Tdi over Td5 for a whole host of reasons - most of which folk'll disagree with. :wink:
I just don't think the TD5 was all it was cracked up to be. Don't get me wrong - it's a fine lump, I just think some earlier engines were finer.
Mind you, in a perfect world I'd just fit a v8 and say to hell with the fuel bill! :wink: :lol:
cheers
8)
Eeyore
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I think you are mad, i've driven 200Tdi 300Tdi and TD5's and seriously wouldnt consider one of the earler engines over the TD5...ever!
If you had oil in the loom you were unlucky, but as its fixed why bother changing? The TD5 has bags of torque in all the right places and is more powerful and more tunable than a 300Tdi, treat it right and it'll last just as long if not longer too.
You'd be nuts to change it for an older vehicle!
I've driven 300Tdi before and I thought they were fine, so I'm not bothered on that score.
As for the loom problem I wish it was solved - it has "gone away for no apparent reason" which just makes me nervous although all of the indications are that it is the engine loom at fault. Somewhere. Apparently.
As for "an older vehicle" then I suppose if you look at the number plate then it would be older, but is one that has been rebuilt from scratch on a galvanised chassis with a reconditioned engine & gearbox, probably to better standards than new, really "an older vehicle"?
I always thought that with Land Rovers, condition mattered above age :?
We'll see - it's thoughts crossing my mind at the moment as I wonder if the XS stays "fixed" even though the fault hasn't actually been found :cry:
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Well if one fault has prompted this question then I wouldn't by the refurbed 110 from Foley. Go by a Honda they never go wrong.
Cheers
Steve :)
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Well if one fault has prompted this question then I wouldn't by the refurbed 110 from Foley. Go by a Honda they never go wrong.
Cheers
Steve :)
Read my sig. I need a reliable 110. I really don't want to be worrying about a dodgy engine when I've been called out.
I agree things will go wrong, hell, lot's have, but something as fundamental as the engine management playing up is making me ponder if I've made the right choice with the TD5.
I'm no luddite; I've been deeply involved IT all my working life, but when a bit of inappropriate technology poses a problem that could quite literally mean life or death, then I think I have a reasonable case to start asking questions.
With any luck the problem has gone away. The rocker cover was removed, all of the electrical connections cleaned up, tested and then all put back together. No specific faulty component was found and everything tested okay. It's been fine for the last couple of days.
What really shook by confidence was the fact that the fault first presented itself on the way back from a live call-out. Makes you think :shock:
Perhaps I am over-reacting. Only time will tell.
Anyway, a Honda :?: , wash your mouth out and remember where you are :lol:
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I drive a TD5 Disco, but if I was building my dream Land Rover I'd go for a 300Tdi 110 because of the relative bombproofness. You lose the complex electrics for a start.
As much as I like the TD5, I've found that my chipped Disco can only keep up with a well-sorted 300Tdi, not pull away from it. So there's no real performance benefit. In fact I find the Tdis more pleasant to drive in some ways because the torque seems to span a wider range, whereas the TD5 needs more frequent gear-changing and you have to drive it in the right part of the rev range if you don't want to get bogged down.
Like some others, although I'm happy with the TD5, I don't think it's a particularly superb lump of metal; LR could have done a bit better.
Having said this, drive both alongside each other (not literally) before you take the plunge!
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Oh, by the way, Land Rover still build thousands of 300Tdi Defenders each year for export markets (where the emissions controls aren't so vigorous). IIRC they make about the same number of 300Tdis as TD5s at the moment.
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I drive a TD5 Disco, but if I was building my dream Land Rover I'd go for a 300Tdi 110 because of the relative bombproofness. You lose the complex electrics for a start.
The discussion so far has been around the TD5/300Tdi, but that's not really what I was asking.
I've driven lots of 300Tdis and I've never found them wanting, so that's not a factor in my decision.
What is a factor is that I have the possibility to build my dream Land Rover, via somewhere like Foleys or Nene Valley.
It could have all of the things I want, and none of the things I don't. I don't use the aircon (gives me headaches), I don't need electric windows (that you can't use unless the ignition is on!) or central locking, the Webasto makes the heated screen and seats redundant.
It will be based on an older vehicle, of that there is no doubt, and that is what I was really asking. Is this a sensible thing to do - sell a two-year old vehicle and purchase an "older", but ultimately more personal vehicle that does exactly what I want?
To give some sort of idea of what I've asked Foleys about, here is the outline specification:-
300TDI with a R380.
Galvanised chassis & bulkhead.
Standard height suspension using standard Land Rover bits where possible.
Stainless fixings to be used wherever possible, unless load-bearing or safety is an issue. Everything else rust-proofed, especially door frames and B pillars.
Fuel tank(s) to have 120 litres capacity at least, more if possible.
Webasto Thermo-top C pre-heater with 7-day timer and remote - lovely!
Normal wind-up windows.
Normal SW body, except I don't want rear side windows.
Decent front seats with the facility to move the drivers seat back an inch or two more than normal - without raising the height. I'm 6'3" and mostly leg!
Second-row seats moved back a little to give the rear passengers a sporting chance when sat behind me.
No rear seats in the loadbay area.
Full sound-proofing.
Sneaky anti-theft measures as well as a Cat-1 alarm to keep the insurers happy.
Wolf wheels with either Goodyear MT/R or BFG ATs.
Winch bumper and Warn 9.5Xp winch.
Safety Devices roof rack and ladder.
Extra driving lights on the front and on the roof.
NAS rear lights and a rear work light.
Safari raised air intake.
Rear wheel carrier.
Split charge system with all auxiliary systems powered off the extra batteries with 12V sockets in the front and the back.
It will have a full respray and fresh external bits so it would look new anyway.
So, am I still mad? :wink:
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So, am I still mad? :wink:
Yes, you have most of that already and other minor tweeks could be made without any problems to the vehicle you already own, which is galvanised chassis and all nicely kitted with nice extras (even if you dont like or use them!)
It seems fairly pointless changing for the sake of it, just because of 1 problem with the engine that is cured. If the vehicle is only 2 as you say then take it back to the dealers and demand they change the ECU harness to make doubly sure, its under warranty after all :)
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Galvanised chassis on a 2004 model?
Are you sure? Where does it say that?
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Defenders post 2002 when they deleted the bulkhead in SW models, and changed the dash have galv chassis.
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i would go with building ur dream rover matey we have td5 and tdi300 safari's 110 at work and i prefer the 300 anytime as the td5's we have are nothing but trouble :D go with wot u feels right and its nice to be able to work on ur own truck with out having to plug it in to a pc :D :wink:
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What you need is one of these =P~
I can't afford a TD5, so have no idea how they drive, and am not interested.
The 300 is a great and proven engine, good enough for me. Laila is in excellent condition and am slowly working through a list similar to yours, having already completed most over the last two years.
Go for it, make the vehicle you really want, you won't get many chances like this \:D/
Ollie
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Well I certainly have food for thought now!
The TD5 is a fantastic machine but Ollie is right, I won't get a chance to do this again and make the Land Rover I really want.
Because of the Search and Rescue Team I cannot be without a Land Rover for any great period of time, hence why I'm thinking of getting one of the reputable firms to basically provide what Land Rover can't - a dead simple Defender as a long-term ownership "package". I can then swap straight over rather than mess about trying to sell one and buy the other.
As long as what Foleys, Nene Valley or whoever supplies is solid, rust free and has the major mechanicals, body and electrics sorted out I can do the rest myself.
I'll see what Foleys say first and then take it from there.
And Laila looks fantastic 8)
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Defenders post 2002 when they deleted the bulkhead in SW models, and changed the dash have galv chassis.
no they dont
landrover wont supply a galvy chassis unless its a special order
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Defenders post 2002 when they deleted the bulkhead in SW models, and changed the dash have galv chassis.
no they dont
landrover wont supply a galvy chassis unless its a special order
That explains why I had to sort out the rust on the rear crossmember. On a two year old Land Rover :shock:
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Defenders post 2002 when they deleted the bulkhead in SW models, and changed the dash have galv chassis.
no they dont
landrover wont supply a galvy chassis unless its a special order
Strange, i was sure they went back to galv chassis like the old'uns. I was definatly told mine was galv and its an 04 plate....gonna go and have a poke about now!
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Strange, i was sure they went back to galv chassis like the old'uns. I was definatly told mine was galv and its an 04 plate....gonna go and have a poke about now!
Check the rear cross-member, especially the inside of it.
I took mine back to the franchised dealer and had a moan. They recoated it, but didn't bother with the inside where the rust was :shock:
Sorted it out myself in the end with the aid of a large tin of Waxoyl.
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I'm not sure what their reputation is like as I've no personal experience, but TJC have been doing exactly this kind of work for a long while now.
May be worth a look..
http://www.tjclandrovers.co.uk/default.htm
Cheers
Steve
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I'm not sure what their reputation is like as I've no personal experience, but TJC have been doing exactly this kind of work for a long while now.
May be worth a look..
http://www.tjclandrovers.co.uk/default.htm
That's interesting. Hadn't heard of TJC before but having had a look at their "Build Zone" it looks very much like the sort of thing I'm after.
Thanks :D
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btw I have used them before, They did some work on my 50th 90 a few years ago when I first got it and that work I couldn't fault. No experience of rebuild work though.
Steve
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I gotta admit I agree as well, I'd much rarther have the older TDs or TDis than the TD5, I've just heard too many Horror stories, plus the Economy is apparently dreadful compared to the TDis.
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I gotta admit I agree as well, I'd much rarther have the older TDs or TDis than the TD5, I've just heard too many Horror stories, plus the Economy is apparently dreadful compared to the TDis.
Horror stories like what? There are very few cases of anything nasty, even drowning a TD5 ECU is remarkably difficult!
The economy is on a par with TDi's, no better no worse....not dreadful in comparison by any stretch of the imagination!
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Horror Stories like Electrical issues stranding the vehicle in the pouring rain at 3am on the M-Way (Happened to a mates 90), Oil issues, all sorts, It just doesn't get the same amount of Positive press that the TDs and TDis got.
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Horror stories like what? There are very few cases of anything nasty, even drowning a TD5 ECU is remarkably difficult!
The economy is on a par with TDi's, no better no worse....not dreadful in comparison by any stretch of the imagination!
Apart from the injector harness, a weeping clutch master cylinder (which took a franchised dealer 6 working days to replace!) and a leaking fuel pump I've had no problems in nearly 61,000 miles, and a few thousand of those have been off-road.
Thinking of it, the leaking fuel pump was probably self inflicted since it started after I fitted the Webasto heater - you have to drop the tank for Webasto fuel line.
I've had a word with JE Engineering (who used to test TD5s for Land Rover) and the injector harness is the most likely cause of the misfire I had. Seems that sometimes just flexing the harness can make or break the thing, and a new harness fixes the problem in 99% of cases. At £40 or so for a spare one I'll probably get one just in case - takes 30 minutes to fit at most. That's better than all of the faffing about trying to get a main dealer to tend to it.
As for economy, I'm running a full 195BHP Stage 2 from JE Engineering with 1.2:1 gearing, 265/75 Goodyear MT/Rs, loads of recovery and rescue gear on board and get an average of around 27.5mpg. That's a mixture of motorways, A roads, lanes and bits of standing around in traffic. I normally do about 65 or so on the motorway.
That also includes 15 minutes of the Webasto every morning, so I'm probably closer to 28mpg.
So, overall it's quite acceptable and not the horror story people make out.
Given the stick I've given the thing over the last couple of years, it's done remarkably well, so when it has gone wrong it has been a bit of a shock.
Perhaps if I gave it name it would help :wink: I should start a thread on naming it and then I can smash a bottle of cheap bubbly on the bumper. Gotta do these things right, you know...
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plus the Economy is apparently dreadful compared to the TDis.
The economy is on a par with TDi's, no better no worse....not dreadful in comparison by any stretch of the imagination!
I see an average of between 30 & 32MPG for my 110, that's on 'run of the mill' (day to day driving)
My old 110 (a 300Tdi) used to average about 27MPG for the same useage
I think it's a very flexible engine, pottering about with complete ease at 15-20MPH in 5th & also holding 30MPH (in 5th) up a 1-in-11 on the way to work everyday with no complaints, or juddering
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Well I thought it time to give an update on the injector harness problem I was having.
After messing about with the harness plug (it had the tiniest amount of oil in it) it didn't seem to matter what I did with it. In the end two tins of electrical contact cleaner were wasted trying to clean out the plug. Two trips to the dealer (where it behaved itself impeccably both times) did show a logged fault on injector number 1 but that's alll.
Guess what - it's not the plug :oops:
I found out purely by accident that if I put a finger on the plug the misfire started. After taking the rocker cover off I noticed that just by pressing a finger against the plug moved the loom and the connector on the injector nearest to the plug - yes injector number 1 :roll:
So I pulled the electrical connector off the injector and it seemed a bit loose... Too loose...
So, the loom is at fault, but it's dead easy to solve - just tweak the injector spade connectors with a pair of needle-nose pliers to tighten them up a bit.
I put it all back together and no amount of abuse will get it to misfire :D
I've done nearly 4,000 miles since then and it's still okay. I took the acoustic cover off at the weekend (to check that the rocker cover was still oil-tight) and did the "wiggle-plug" test - didn't cause any problems.
So, problem identified and solved. I like problems that I can find the answer to, so I'm a very happy bunny :D
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Well done Dave, nice one!!
Although the offer's still there if you want a swap :lol: :lol: :lol:
Jeff
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:) Just a quick one i converted to 300tdi with uprated intercooler vortex exhaust and overdrive oh and had the pump tweaked she pulls lovely you can do 30mph in fifth and floor it she just winds the turbo up and pulls!!! no fuss no vibrations no moaning she just goes!! do that in a standard td5 and it chuck's it's dummy out oh and the manual tdv6 disco's just the same you have to rev common rail diesels to get them to pull (i.e no low down torque) i admit top end a td5 will beat me but low down i don't think you can beat a sorted 300 tdi.
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Glad you got it sorted, see, simple really :D
As for 30mph in 5th gear - i bet my untuned TD5 will manage just fine, and know it would be even better if tuned.
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:) Just a quick one i converted to 300tdi with uprated intercooler vortex exhaust and overdrive oh and had the pump tweaked she pulls lovely you can do 30mph in fifth and floor it she just winds the turbo up and pulls!!! no fuss no vibrations no moaning she just goes!! do that in a standard td5 and it chuck's it's dummy out oh and the manual tdv6 disco's just the same you have to rev common rail diesels to get them to pull (i.e no low down torque) i admit top end a td5 will beat me but low down i don't think you can beat a sorted 300 tdi.
Get the TD5 similarly sorted out and it will do the same - mine does 30mph in fifth even with the 1.2:1 disco gearing and you can just ride the wave of torque to accelerate [1]
I regularly sit at 30 mph up through a local village that has about a 1:15 hill and speed bumps (locals must absolutely love that!) in fifth and then when it returns to the national speed limit I just tickle the loud pedal :twisted:
Lately though I've been emulating BTM and seeing what mpg I can get by being a bit more, um, sensitive with the right hoof. I'm regularly seeing about 32mpg now without thinking too hard about it. :D
[1] I think this is where a properly remapped ECU rather than a plug-in box really makes a difference - better throughout the entire rev range.
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Glad you got it sorted, see, simple really :D
Thank you :D
I got in touch with TJC and talked through a few things about what was possible with a refurbished 300TDI 110, but didn't take it any further.
We went on holiday for a couple of weeks and I decided to give the TD5 a thorough going over on our return to try and sort the problem out once and for all myself, instead of trying to rely on the "abilities" of my local franchised dealer who shall remain nameless. I knew I should have got worried when their delivery driver (on returning the 110 after six days of replacing the clutch master cylinder!) said "I've not driven a 110 before, and I've worked there for nearly twenty years"...
Anyway it looks like I've managed to sort it out myself - my confidence in the 110 has returned and I've stopped being hyper-sensitive to the noises from under the bonnet.
A problem isn't a problem if you know what the solution is :wink:
Anyway my thoughts have turned to other matters - a roof rack for it. I've been looking for a Safety Devices one as fitted to the G4 110s and it looks like they're as rare as rocking horse manure :(
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Although the offer's still there if you want a swap
:D
Tempting, but I don't think a soft-top 90 is quite the thing carrying some of our more precious cargo :roll:
For those of you into cycling, we've got a very nice custom-built George Longstaff tandem that fits perfectly into the back of the 110 with just the front wheel removed. Snug as a bug...
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Glad you got everything working well. If you are interested, have a look here for a PC based TD5 diagnostics for 220 pounds inc VAT..
Features of this kit:
* Live Data Monitoring
* Fault CodeReading/Clear
* Security Matching
* Testing the Current Immobiliser Code
* Injector re-coding
http://www.kitcarelectronics.co.uk/
Also for the safety Devices rack, keep an eye on ebay. they come up every few months, mostly from LR dealers selling them to free up space. Also Equifax get a lot of the kit that is stripped off the G4 LR's before they are sold on and so maybe worth a call and leaving your name with them. A number of support G4 110's will be coming in next 6-9 months.
Cheers
Steve
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Once the warranty is over (for what it's worth given the dubious qualities of most franchised dealers I've had to endure) then I'll be looking at a home diagnostic kit.
Also, I think it's Equicar (not Equifax) in Wolverhampton that so the 4x4 breaking. Didn't realise you could get on a waiting list for bits though - thanks for that.
As for ebay - several emailed searches have been set up for quite a while - nothing yet :(
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Hey SMO all I can say is give it time. Its no way old enough yet. As with all engines we get silly probs. See what the future brings. :lol:
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Hey SMO all I can say is give it time. Its no way old enough yet. As with all engines we get silly probs. See what the future brings. :lol:
This is true, although my 110 TD5 did 150K before i sold it which is pretty good without fault, easily comparable and probably better than most TDi's of that mileage :)
(Its still going strong too!)
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Fair comment. Its like all motors tho you get good ones and bad ones....
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i have a fully re mapped ecu, with alisport intercooler etc, 185 x 75 m/t's very reliable with lot's of power- would not fault the td5.
i guess i see fewer td5 off roading, therefore when you hear of a problem it all get's hyped up?
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go on dave, go for the 300tdi you know you want to, anyway the saying is , one life live it, i do with my 200tdi, wouldent change it for anything its now part of me.