Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Range Rover => Topic started by: benbenukuk on August 28, 2007, 17:24:49
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Hi, Does Any One Use A Automatic Instead Of A Manuel Off Road As I Have Noticed That There Are A Lot Of RRC With Automatic Gearboxes, What Are the like Compared With A Manuel Etc. Ben
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They're great - you can feed the power in very gently and it gives you a lot of control. Given the choice, I'd rather have an auto, apart from the slight loss of fuel economy, and the arguably greater complexity when it breaks.
Out of interest, why do you put a capital letter at the beginning of every word? Doesn't that make typing a lot slower?
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ive driven autos and manuals offroad, and certainly with a v8, i'd choose an auto anytime...you just need to get the hang of cadence braking on steep downhills...other than that they are much easier to drive offroad.
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I know some that prefer a manual, but having inadvertantly bought one I'm converted. V8s and autos go together nicely.
The one trouble with auto boxs I've come across is where someones converted to a diesel using the V8 torque converter, said vehicle was ok on the road, but off road it struggled to get up any significant slopes.
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thermidorthelobster, I Use Captitals At The Begging Of Each Letter As I Have Always Done E-Mails Like That And Im Just Used To It Now. Ben
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It makes it really really hard to read :x
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It Is Actually A Secret Code, Virtually Impossible For The Non Range Rover Owning Masses To Read!
my auto is very controllable off road (tried it this week) , was really suprised how easy they are, hardly any rolling back when off the throttle. although it is rubbish on fuel.
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I use a RRC with V8 engine and 4-speed auto box for 'laning and off-road and find the auto box excellent. See my Avatar.
It allows very close control over your speed for crawling up or down steep slopes or steps.
Gear changes are seamless so traction is not lost by de-clutching when changing gear, for example in slippery conditions when the box will change up if wheel spin occurs. It doesn't always work but is more likely to than trying to change up manually.
It is a myth that there is no engine braking. For short (1-2 car lengths) downhill slopes I use cadence braking otherwise its easy to select a lower gear to provide engine braking. On ordinary roads engine braking by selecting a lower gear is only required on long descents, otherwise current driving teaching says "brakes to slow and gears to go".
It's noticeable how many competitors now opt for auto boxes for Road Taxed or Cross Country Vehicle Trials (RTVT/CCVT), Competitive Safaris and Hill Rallies.
Auto boxes cannot be abused in the way manuals can so are more reliable. :D
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thermidorthelobster, I Use Captitals At The Begging Of Each Letter As I Have Always Done E-Mails Like That And Im Just Used To It Now. Ben
You need to relaxe mate, lol.
I have driven the disco which is auto offroad many a' times and its great, so easyier than a manual 90 I drove :shock:
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You need to relaxe mate, lol.
..or alternatively .. relax. Much easier.
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You need to relaxe mate, lol.
..or alternatively .. relax. Much easier.
:oops: :lol:
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Well I asked the same question ealier this year and no-one managed to give me a reason to stay manual, other than some people prefer it.
The 4 speed Auto is so much better than autos I drove when I was younger and bigger engines suite Auto, I know my LSE is much faster on-road partly due to the 'box.
One disadvantage with an auto is that it keeps pulling in low 1st and as you have no clutch you have to use the brakes sometimes to stop the car pulling itself into something.
Recently I took the new 'van to Whitby and one of the hills, Blue Bank, is a 1 in 10 descent. I know that's not steep but with 1900Kg of 'van on the back....
Anyway, the sign at the top of the hill said low gear now, so I stuck it in 1st gear high, it damn near stopped, even on the steepest part I was hardly touching the brake and most of the way down I was on the gas to get it to move.
I really like the Auto for towing too, especially manuevring. Oh! and in traffic.
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The main reason I asked is because I will have to replace my series 3 (hopefully not to soon) and can't decide between a rrc or a 200/300 tdi defender, what are your thoughts about which one I should get, the only thing that puts me off the rrc is that petrols and water don't mix and the sizeof the rrc compared to my series, how much bigger are they compared to my series 3 swb? Ben
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The main reason I asked is because I will have to replace my series 3 (hopefully not to soon) and can't decide between a rrc or a 200/300 tdi defender, what are your thoughts about which one I should get, the only thing that puts me off the rrc is that petrols and water don't mix and the sizeof the rrc compared to my series, how much bigger are they compared to my series 3 swb? Ben
Overall dimensions are:
... ... ... ..Wheelbase ... ... Length ... Width
S III ... ... ...88" .... ... ... ... 138.5" ... 64"
S III ... ... ..109" .... ... ... ...175.0" ... 66"
RRC early ..100". ... ... ... ...174" .. ... 70"
RRC late ...108 .. ... ... ... ...182" ... .. 70"
Def/90 ... ..92.9" ... ... ... ... 142" ... . 70.5"
Water is rarely a problem with the V8 unless you go too deep wading or hit a big puddle too fast. Once out of the water a squirt of WD40 usually does the trick.
The RRC will do anything the Defender/90 can but in comfort and style! You might gather from my Avatar that I am prejudiced :D
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I'd agree with that...i've only killed V8's a few times in water...usually due to approaching at audience pleasing speeds :lol: ... bit of WD40 and they always fire up again straight away.
100 inch (standard RRC / disco) is a nice wheelbase for offroading, and in some cases will go places a 90 wont.
The comfort factor is also a big one...i have a RRC for daily use and another as an offroad toy and both are a lot more comfortable than our 110.
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Most common hang up with a range rover is the big fat over hang at the rear, notably affecting departure angle which is why so many have been bobtailed.
For greenlaning the departure angle is mor than adequate, its rearly only pay and plays where this can become a problem.
One advantage the RRC have over defenders is it has softer/longer springs as standard giving them better traction on rough terrain.
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if you are worried about V8 auto RRC, buy a TDI!!
I have a Vogue SE 300TDi auto, and it is the dogs!! has traction control and air con :)
No issue with the auto it is SOOO much better then all the manuals I have off-roaded! I have a 3 inch spring convertion and a southdown tank gaurd so no real issues with the overhang!
If you are seriously thinking of buying, an impending house move is putting pressure on me to sell the truck...??
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i would go for diesel unles you dont do many miles or have deep pockets, mate of mine had a v8 rrc lovely motor on and off road but horendesly thirsty. I get around 30 mpg out of my 200 tdi my mates rangie did around 15 mpg.... lovely motor though.
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oh I get about 28mpg on-road and I have bigger tyres..
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I don't give a rats posterior about MPG, Blue does about 225-240 miles on £32 of LPG and the LSE does about 140 miles to £25+, with or without the caravan on the back!
Don't get too caught up on the water thing, driving through water deep enought to drown a V8 is going to wreck lots of other expensive bits that won't be ficed as easily as a squirt of WD40, whatever fuel you use, and petrol engines don't grenade when they get hydraulic'ed. V8s can be waterproof enough to go in over the roof, by which time the interior is goosed.
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Most common hang up with a range rover is the big fat over hang at the rear, notably affecting departure angle which is why so many have been bobtailed.
My offroader rangie has been turned into a pickup but the lower body is still full length, i have a 2 inch suspension lift and im running 265/75R16 tyres...also got a tank guard and tow hitch fitted.
With that setup i managed to show up quite a few 90's on an offroad week i've just been on so the overhang really isn't a huge problem!
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I take it thats the new cage fitted james, it looks good.
I tend to agree that the overhang is not a huge problem, but it is still probably the most common problem on a stock RRC off raod when compared to a 90.
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I have a RRC V8 auto and it took me a long time to get used to the auto box. I did used to do alot of green laning in a....... 1969 VW Beetle (in search of remote camp spots!) which was a manuel and when I switched to the auto I felt like I lost alot of control, with a manuel you can control pricisley how much power is going to the wheels by use of the cluch, in a auto I found that you keep on increasing the revs untill it lurched over the obstical....... this is how I struggled on untill Mr Blues enlighted me to "Left foot braking" Now I have mastered that I have regained the prisision that I felt I had lost and therefor would go for the auto every time.
V8's and water..... no problems at all! my RRC is stock and I have driven through a section of lane that had a stretch of water about 100m in length. I thought that there was no way this water would be deeper than half way up the wheels........ about half way through the water came over the bonnet!!! The Range Rover didnt miss a beat (however the same can not be said for my heart!) and with the help of traction control made it through easily. I do however cover the whole engine and ignition system with wd40 every time I lift the bonnet, i do this to help it cope with water and to kill the rust bug off.
90 or a RRC....... RRC can do most things a 90 can do but does it in comfort and has heaters/air con, heated seats, dimming rear view mirrors, a stereo you can hear, smooth ride, does not leak water over you when it rains, it's quite, and if you want, will sit at 100mph on the motorway which is why I went for the RRC over a 90
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You can pick up a RRC really cheaply giving you loads more comfort whilst playing an leaving spare cash fo a few mods, I've got two auto's and I personally think they're better off road as they deliver the power smoother so your less likely to spin a wheel, on road the auto could do with an extra gear for cruising, shorten the tow bar put some bigger wheels an a lift on and the rear end isn't a problem
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Griz, my LSE cruises at 30mph/1,000rpm in top, how fast is yours?
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I've got a 3.9 v8 auto and would never go back to a manual. Just taken it offroad for the first time,( I also have a pajero,diff locks etc ) and I was absolutely gob smacked at what this thing can do. Bearing in mind that it's running standard road tyres it was unstoppable, honestly :twisted: There was ALOT of tomfoolery going on in mud at least axle deep and the thing just kept going !!! I was driving around people with mud tyres and 4" lifts. As for the tow bar I just use that as an early warning device :roll: :lol: I've heard stories of diff's and axles made out of baked been tins etc and whinced everytime I hit something :? ( They really should have some sort of diff gaurds, is it cos they got live axles ? ) And I was really worried about the water thing :oops: But it really was the muts nuts offroad.(Any advise on waterproofing greatfully received,using damp start at the mo £££££££££££ :shock:
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barrie you can buy diff guards / axle guard and guards for just about anything else underneath if you shop around!
probably about one of the first things you should do tbh...spending £100 on underbody protection can save a lot of money later if you hit a rock or two.
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I take it its on standard 205 "road" tyres, if so then don't worry about the axles. The only time I've seen one go was on a defender with 265/75r16 anaconders that had just been given some serious abuse trying to get a near 1:1.
I strongly recomend diff guards, certainly on the front. In my experiance the diff pan will recive more abuse than anyother part, I dented the diff pans long before I bent anything else. Best bit is that a diff guard cost only a few quid new.
Good to hear someone else discovering that you can do a surprising amount with a standard RRC. Don't just remove the tow bar on a RRC anyway as its the only good recovery point on a standard veicle. I would say the first thing you should consider if your doing a lot of off roading is to get some good strong recovery points for the front of the vehicle.
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Wheel spin is greatly reduced as mentioned. Here's Shed on a table top - no diff lock. There's still almost no wheel spin despite the angle and height (not easy to gauge by the vid)
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k97/noozeteam/Video/th_stutabletop2.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k97/noozeteam/Video/?action=view¤t=stutabletop2.flv)
Slushboxes?
I love 'em!
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Auto all the way - wouldn't go back to a manual if you paid me. Much more progression when feeding the power in, plus the ability to go even slower to maintain control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzL41ILCJMs
Here's a brief clip featuring both my rangies (mainly my P38).
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we have an auto and it works fine
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Griz, my LSE cruises at 30mph/1,000rpm in top,.....
my diesel manual golf does 35mph in top per 1000
:wink:
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well I have deceided to get a rrc :D over a 90 can any one reccomend which one to get 3.5 3.9 and what to look out for, I plan to get it after christmas. Ben
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3.9 V8 MATE !!! :lol: :lol: I was first so I win ! :lol: :lol:
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Oh and get the cheapest one you can get hold of :wink: People asking £3000 for a twenty year old gas guzzler are having a laff ! Part's are dirt cheap, they are easy to work on and if your going to offroad it ,( and you will) It'll get damaged anyway. Oh and there are loads of stuff you can buy for them so spend any cash left on that :twisted: :lol: :lol:
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And petrol to drive the bloody thing :roll:
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depending on insurance price 3.9 :twisted: it is. Ben
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barriesheene: what sort of mpg do you get? Ben
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:shock:
To be honest if you just let it drive everywhere on tickover, which it will, then it's not to bad :oops: The problem is traffic light's :roll: I just cant help rocking the whole car by blipping the throttle and watching everybody's face behind :lol: :lol: :lol: It's the only car I've ever had that is as much fun standing still as it is actually moving :lol: If you get one Ben please let me know if you laugh out load the first time you rev it. I know me and everybody at work did :P :lol: :lol: :lol: I must have gone through £30 of fuel that first week just letting people sit and rev it !!!! Serious note tho ben you get about 20 to the gallon on a run, ( by the way they love motorways ! ) Bear in mind I also have a 2.5 Deisel Pajero and that does 16 - 23 alot more slowly ! :lol: :lol: :lol: but it will run on veg oil which the grean beast wont :roll:
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To give you an idea of price ben I paid £800 note's for my avatar. ( 8 months tax and mot and done 2500miles in 3 years 118000miles so dont pay over the odds cos there is no need
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Ben looking at your sig you have a 2.25 petrol so in comparison the mpg probably won't change much to what your used to, despite twice the number of cylinders, 1.6 times the capacity and twice the power.
I average about 16 to 17mpg with a tired 3.5 that doesn't run right, which by the sound of it is no worse that a friend manages with his series.
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Err, I get about 12 driving it sensibly :oops:
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Err, I get about 12 driving it sensibly :oops:
Isn't that on gas, though? And is that the LSE or Blue?
My 3.9 V8 used to do about 16 mpg on petrol and 12 on gas.
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well im hopefully going to get one in the next 2 months, what should I look out for engine wise and body wise. Ben
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Well perhaps more relevant to the original question, about 2 years ago I replaced the engine/box and clutch on Blue. Well the clutch is slipping already and it's done maybe 10,000miles :shock:
Auto for me in future.
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:(bigcry):
Today I took the VM (diesel manual) for a pay and play, as it was a bit too far away to grantee making it there and back in the V8 on its current engine. Must get the fresh engine/chassis/(suspension?) sorted on the V8 pronto, I miss the auto box off road.
However I did do 266 miles (not including the miles driven off road) on just half a tank of fuel :D
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That's interesting what MPG people are geting, my 3.9 is averaging 17MPG but I am very light on the go-go pedel The worst it has done is 13MPG and the best 22MPG
Just to give you an Idea of petrol running cost..... a full tank is about 80litres of fuel costing round about £75 a tank full (roughly!) and on one tank full i get round about 315 miles.
I keep a check on how much fuel i'm burning here's some stats on what fuel i have used from th 01/01/07 - 24/10/07
Distanced traveled: 8889 miles
Totel fuel consumed: 2447.78ltr
Cost of fuel per 100 miles £27.18
fuel consumption rate: 27.54 ltr per 100 miles
Total expense........ £2391.93
hummmmm :?
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i love the V8 auto off road apart from the down hill engine breaking still not use to it :lol:
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Of course if you've fitted bigger tyres then engine braking will suffer too.
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so what is the best way to go down a steep hill off road? also what do you do if you fail a hill climb? Ben
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Downhill - low 1st. Left foot brake while bringing up the power to take up the slack as you drop down if you are really worried.
Failed hillclimb? In what way? Stalled?
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a hill climb that you fail due to not given it enough power and you stop half way up, Ben
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The best torque converter gear box I have driven for controlled hill descents was on an old loading shovel, at the brough of the hill you just put it in high reverse and then let gravity pulley you down the slope, if it went to fast then all you did was accelerate :lol:
Unfortunately I don't think you can just select 3rd or 4th gear with a typical auto box to do this trick in the event of a failed hill climb. I find reverse gear and careful control of the brakes works, but its still not as good as a manual.
Cadence breaking is a very useful technique for controlling auto boxes (and manuals for that matter) off road. Basically you replicate ABS by quickly applying and then releasing the breaks repeatedly if it goes too fast.
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Well normaly in a failed hill climb you would run out of steam due to incorrect gear and possibly not enough momentum, eventually I guess you would stall, then stuff it in reverse, drop the clutch out, take off the brakes and crank the engine.
Well with an auto :? sorry, wrong gear? it'll change down under power, it won't stall at all, so either you end up spinning the wheels or the engine sits at 2,000 rpm boiling the transmission oil.
Momentum of course we all suffer from.
As with a manual, select reverse, make sure the wheels are pointing straigh then let the brakes go and the engine will help you brake.
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I've got a manual & found it helped me out when I got my V8 got rather wet driving through a deep ford (over the bonnet :shock: )
The engine cut out & I nearly got it out on the starter motor quite successfully, untill my mate in a RRC auto who was in front got in my way (his cut out also :( ).
It would have got me all the way out if he wasn't in the way (thanks Mark :cry: .......lol).
I was thinking of changing to an auto at the time but quickly changed my mind after that.
I prefer autos normally as I'm lazy & don't like changing gear, I wouldn't have a manual for any road going car/4x4 but not so sure about an offroad vehicle.
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i dont do water in the V8 dont like to get wet recovering it
V8's and H2O dont mix to well
the wife has a rr with ABS quuestion is would it cut in on a hill decent low box first :?
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IIRC ther ABS will not work at under 5mph, but I won't put money on that :?
I know if has to be going above 5mph before it drops out of diagnostic mode, but IIRC the traction control works as soon as you turn on the engine.
Anyway, as soon as the ABS light goes out, the traction control would be at your dispopsal.
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what year did they bring in traction control? Ben
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91/92 IIRC, it's an add-on option to ABS
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how will I know if it's got traction control :oops: Ben
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Firstly it's got to have ABS, then when you switch on the ign 2 warning lights relating to the ABS/TC should light up. On a hard dash the ABS light is red and near the top IIRC, the TC is in the middle and is orange, it looks like 2 exclamation marks that have fallen over. It should light up breifly then go out, even before you drive away IIRC.
On the soft dash the ABS is again near the top and the TC is on the RHS of the instruments, it says TC and has a ring round it.
More technically, the TC block bolts onto the side of the ABS master module and has extra pippes and another bleed nipple, it's not very big though, about the sizie of a matchbox toy car IIRC.
It only works on the back wheels too, mine goes crazy if I drive in only FWD as it spins the wheels.