Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Series Land Rovers => Topic started by: lightweight-love on April 10, 2008, 21:19:46
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Hi all i know theres been previous threads but none i can find explain the choice of engine!
as i understand it defender units fit better as turbo up higher so the exhaust clears the chassis better but an alright one costs around £600
disco engines are cheaper and easier to get hold of for around £300-£350 but the exhaust is close to chassis, so you need to make/ or buy a pipe for 70quid that quickly does a 90degree bend so runs up and over chassis.
But there must be other differences??
i want it go in my lightweight, i know il have to do something nifty to mount the intercooler,but can i use standard rad? i also hear some people use the oil cooler off a 2.25 for the TDi?
Also do you use the series clutch?
Any help or advice is very greatly appreciated!
I want it primarily for power and MPG, but if i use her to tow trialers with landys on with the TDi am i REALLY asking for trouble? even driving gently and not gunning it?
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correct me if im wrong, but i think the clutches are the same. i put a recon 2.5N/A in my 2.25 sIII and the bellhousing mated up fine, so going on that a 200 will fit if you weld on some new mounts. google 300tdi conversion, i know theres a company tat converted a SIII with pics so you can take a gander at their rad/int setup
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yeah i think my 9.5 inch clutch will fit fine and was replaced only a few years ago, http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/200di3.htm fits a disco 200tdi but minus the Turbo, i see his point for this but i think i want the turbo!
But surely the turbo being low down on a disco lump is more vulnerable than high up on a defender engine!?
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think the only reason the engines varied was purely for ease-of-access, wouldn't say it was more vunrable as all 300 turbos are mounted in the lower position,but with the revised exhaust outlet position. this is the one i was looking at http://www.eastcoastrover.com/SIIITdi.html (http://www.eastcoastrover.com/SIIITdi.html)
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Will the TDi rad not fit in a lightweight then if you position the intercooler somewhere else? if it did you have the oil cooler there, otherwise look for an oil cooler on a Merc van for example or a big BMW 5 series Deisel and mount it under the front chassis crossmember in the cold air flow.
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Going on from what i have discussed with a friend about my own upcoming TDI convo, it is possible to fit the rad intercooler combo from the doner motor right in place side by side at the front.
For more info get a few beers and read this (http://www.s2cforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=12550.0) Primarily off the S2C forum, and also this one (http://www.s2cforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=15720.0) covers the 200Di conversion.
Oddly i must be the only person thinking of fitting a TDI and then upping the power by playing with the pump and boost. :shock:
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Rowan,
Im going to playing with more power in the next few months...
Turner Stage 1 200Tdi Head, uprated intercooler and a VN Turbo all being done by Porny/Ian... :twisted:
.... Pass me a half-shaft anyone? :D
Johnthan
ps - not entirely mad - its going through and R380
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I likes the sound of that. :evil:
I just want mine to go faster than my little brothers prima powered II. :rolleyes:
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Oddly i must be the only person thinking of fitting a TDI and then upping the power by playing with the pump and boost. :shock:
not the only one thinking/thought of it, but be carefull! increasing the boost will reduce the life of you engine, think its a pretty safe bet that the tdi will slaughter the perkins (in a landy anyway). Think what your using it for, challenge events - give it a tad more boost, if its also a run around then my advise would be leaveit as is
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if you are sticking with the series transfer box, dont up the power, you'll just wheelspin!!
it does that enough as standard :twisted:
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Hi could you let me know were you can get the exhaust adaptor pipe from thanks stu
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Hi could you let me know were you can get the exhaust adaptor pipe from thanks stu
Do you mean the exhaust pipe adapter to more easily fit a Disco 200Tdi unit? :huh: If so - that would be Steve Parker http://www.steve-parker.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=SPEX102 (http://www.steve-parker.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=SPEX102)
Does that help? :-k
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Right enough planning i wanna buy an engine! :dance:
im thinking of getting the cheapest disco i can get with an alright engine,(so if you know any in/near devon i may be interested!)
then defender manifold it up, intercooler maybe side by side with rad, or mounted under bonnet and direct air via bonnet scoops.
S2C forum link is very useful but when Glen Anderson says a defender 200tdi injector pump will foul a series engine-mounting bracket does he mean just on a 109" chassis?
Also is there a suction pipe for brake system on a 200tdi?
cheers
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getting a cheap disco's all good, but watch the milage, try go for one less than 120k. yep vacume pump on a 200 and yes ita only on a 109
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the defender pump fouls the engine mount on any series, not just the 109
i know, i had to cut mine off and make a new mount
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I've done this using a Disco engine and have had it up and running since January so I can tell you the basics and dispel the myths. This is based on a lights in the grille 2a and not a lightweight though.
Disco 200Tdi will fit straight onto the existing engine mounts on a 2 or a 3.
The series 'box will bolt straight on but you will have to remove one stud from the engine.
The series diesel clutch fits onto the Tdi flywheel.
You can buy a ready made exhaust from Steve Parker if you are minted (£280 plus VAT) or you can make one as you progress. Mine is made from Disco and 90 parts. The rear section of a 90 system fits over the back axle and the rest is made up to follow the original line of the series system. The cast (or malleable iron?) section that bolts onto the turbo is binned and a new flange made. This means the pipe exits downward. It is a tight fit but avoids the need to cut the bulkhead footwells.
Despite what has been said on other forums there is absolutely no need to turn or modify the turbo in any way.
The intercooler can be fitted alongside the standard series radiator by cutting a section out of the inner wing and remaking the section to keep the muck out. Pop rivets will suffice.
The series radiator if in good condition to begin with seems to be able to cope with the cooling. I have driven mine off road and done long motorway trips and it has been OK so far.
Fit an electric fan. There is no space for the viscous fan and altough there is clearance between the nose of the water pump and the rad, it is better to grind the nose down as far as the end of the thread for the fan. You won't need it anyway.
If you cut out the standard air filter base and move the battery tray forward by cutting an re-welding you can keep the battery under the bonnet.
Do fit an oil cooler. I have heard of people doing away with it but Land Rover didn't spend all that money developing this engine to run at its best with an oil cooler only for it to be binned! The Disco rad/intercooler/oil cooler comes as one so you will need either an aftermarket cooler, one from a Rover 800 series car or, as I have, one from a military 90.
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by the sounds of it, both engines have their drawbacks
with the defender engine you have to change an engine mount,
with the disco engine you have to do fancy things with the exhaust
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thats why im trying to source a disco engine but fit the defender manifolds, but then you apparently have to re-site the alternator, will see.
12LDA28B - did you drill and use the lower 4 bolts thru gearbox? also do you find you need the electric fan much? good to get another point of view on here, cheers!
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I didn't have to drill anything on the gearbox but it may depend on what gearbox combination you have. Although I have a series 2 gearbox it is the later (suffix C) type with the larger bearings and so can take a series 3 bellhousing. The series 3 bellhousing didn't need any modification but I can't say whether or not the series 2 bellhousing would or not. The fan comes in only on motorway runs but as the temp gauge shows only a 3rd the way up it could be thta it's coming in too soon and the fan thermostat needs adjusting.
One other thing... You should fit bump stop extenders on the front from a military 109 between the chassis and the bump stop itself. This will prevent the Tdi crankshaft pulley from hitting the axle on extreme travel. I found this out the hard way when I took a chip out of the pulley and put a groove in the axle.
Resiting the alternator: You should do this anyway. The Disco 200Tdi engine has the alternator driven from the power steering pump, which is driven by the crankshaft. If you don't resite the alternator you have a useless PS pump that will need some lubrication i.e. a pipe circulating the PS fluid. It's more to go wrong, requires two drive belts and it saps power unneccesarily. Take an alternator mount from a 2.25 petrol or diesel and weld it to a plate so it can be made to bring your alternator in line with the crankshaft pulley. You will need to make an adjuster out of some threaded bar.
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thats why im trying to source a disco engine but fit the defender manifolds, but then you apparently have to re-site the alternator, will see.
12LDA28B - did you drill and use the lower 4 bolts thru gearbox? also do you find you need the electric fan much? good to get another point of view on here, cheers!
that sounds like a damn good idea with the manifolds, best of both worlds
i found that i only needed a fan when i was sat in traffic, stop start kinda thing.
on a run, backing off slightly to protect my ears, i never had any problems even on hte hottest days last year
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manifold idea was from glen anderson he does it on his tdi convo. already running extended shackles n lowered bump stops so that'll be fine.
Not happy that my kenlowe has recently died on me! yet another thing to buy! any recommendations fan wise?
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Unlike many people doing this im starting with a petrol, can i use the tanks i got on now? cleaned with diesel? also i want to keep my dual tanks and fuel changer switch can i use that with diesel? finally any methods to attach fuel return feed to tank?
Thanks for all advice again guys!
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with the tank, just make sure you drain as much petrol out as possible and put as much diesel in a possible to dilute any petrol left
any diesel engine will cope fine with a bit of petrol in the fuel, in fact its an old way of stopping diesel from waxing up, and also a way of cleaning up your exhaust emissions for an MOT
as for the fuel return pipe, i have no idea, i thought they all had them :?
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here is my donor disco! 184,000 on tha clock but runs good and got for good price! electric windows n mirrors, 2 sunroofs, later alloys
Now the fun begins!
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here is my donor disco! 184,000 on tha clock but runs good and got for good price! electric windows n mirrors, 2 sunroofs, later alloys
Now the fun begins!
Please keep us updated on how things are going! :)
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Quick update, waiting on paddocks parcel to do timing belt-gonna do in disco for ease then take engine out.
Radiator is totally rusted away barely any fins left, have sourced a 300tdi one, only difference is bottom water hose comes out on different side-but not much of an issue!
replacing rocker gasket and do tappets whilst there, then into my lightweight, im gonna step the intercooler infront of the radiator a bit to make fit, as dont want to cut into my wings! also if at all possible will try and keep viscous fan on engine but not sure how gonna measure up yet!
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i've just covered 500 miles this weekend in my s3 with the defender 200tdi
the weather was hot most of the time, and she started to get a bit hot when i tried to hold 80mph along the M1
i backed off down to 65 ish, and she was fine
i just cant help it though, for a few miles at a time i just planted my right foot to the floor until the temp gauge started to climb
theres a certain satisfaction to be had when you climb a hill faster than anything else around you :) :evil:
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Sounds like a weekend well spent! will be joining you in the fast lane soon! :twisted:
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timing belt done went pretty ok really, 1 cover bolt was totally solid and i was forced to shear head off bolt and drill out- :evil:
but other than that went ok-lots of lovely blue sealent used! engine all disconnected and ready to swing out tomorrow, getting a 300tdi intercooler so can step infront of rad a lot easier, exhaust plan is to cut, re-angle and re-weld the main pipe that attaches to the turbo as this is pretty much what you can buy off ebay for £70 - £90. and then see what i can make out of the disco exhaust minus the middle-box,
going to use fuel tank i have now, drained and flushed with derv, but going to drill and attach a return pipe on the top.
diesel diesel diesel :twisted:
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waiting on some drill bits to countersink 4 bottom bolts on flywheel housing :evil:
changed tank to diesel now, the fuel return pipe iv put on will drip fuel back into tank from the top as it is now, should i put some tube on the end so it returns fuel to bottom of tank???
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update: getting it done slowly when i get time to work on her! really wish i was doing this inside! rad and intercooler in and plumbed up-just about!, not totally secured yet.
lots of joining pipes n its all a very tight fit, next up finish the fuel lines and go for a start up! few pics...( notice the ends of the intercooler iv cut back an inch ish and then reground a lip for a good fit - gains that lil more room-soo many jobs like that on this build.) also iv fitted the top part of the thermostat from my series engine so water exits upwards so doesn't get in the way of air inlet.
Thanks for reading!
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how to get the gearbox out of disco!
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I hope to hell you didn't get underneath it like that! :shock:
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Are you insane? I ain't a fan of H&S missen but thats flaming ridiculous......
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SHE RUNS!!!!!!
get turbo pipes done n throttle and im a rolling!
WOOO!!!!!
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Just out of interest what did you do about running wires to the starter solenioid
Its just im thining of putting a tdi in my landy and trying ot get my head around it
aaron
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disco starter motor has solenoid on it so im gonna use that one, u could by-pass it and use the existing series 1 if u wanted. yeh lots of bits to get your head around but wiring isnt one of them! just fuel cut off and starter motor! love it!
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most use the disco solenoid on the starter, just extend the red and white trigger wire down to it.
The stop solenoid just use the white feed that used to go to the Coil.
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everything is now finished wid engine change! drives well and will plod along happily being as economic as possible, but then u can give it some gas and it can shift! is a great feeling accelerating like that in a series!
gearbox-wise it feels fine and i think driven respectably will be ok! 'but' if it does go and i decide to go for a different box whats the best alternative then? an R380?
couple pics showing the lowest point of exhaust(all made from disco bits!) is higher than x-member and behind shackles so is fine like that,
and iv used a 300tdi airbox and fitted the rocker breather into it!
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pic 2
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i see you've gone for a slightly less subtle approach for the exhaust than i did :)
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yeah i decided its wat i wanted to do- fiddly making it tho! it just about has room to follow the same route as a 2.25 system, snazzy ending tho!
many thanks for answering some of my many questions along the way. :lol: