Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Defender => Topic started by: iianorthants on April 29, 2005, 09:09:23
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Started a new thread as we seam to be hijacking someone else’s
Right to stop all this assuming that cones will or will not help, I think me and Dave should have a little test on 15th at whaddon and see if it does or doesn’t settle the arguments once and for all.
We both have 90 less then a year apart, both have same wheels and tyres (both only a couple of weeks old) both have 2+ lift, only difference is shocks and Dave’s motor retaining them and me putting on D/cones. So none of this fancy comic book mag testing when one is just std and the other defender has had £10,000 spent on it just to push the items :x .
I hope we both have same line of thought that would prefer to take technical approach :wink: , i.e not third gear and floor it, as don’t want to damage the vehicles. As I assume it will only make a difference to this style of driving :twisted: .
If someone is gun-ho about it I wouldn’t have thought it would make any difference having cones, prob a disadvantage as only using forward momentum not grip. And securing your springs would save your shocks.
So if Dave’s up for it, we will take some pics, if we can find a few suitable obstacles. And let you know if spending less then £50 on cones will help or not. Ooooh sounds like a bit of real journalism :shock: :shock: :shock: .
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Will Dave take the door step challange ???
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Don’t think a doorstep will be big enough :? , unless you have a 3-4 foot one we can use :shock: . Did think about an artificial ramp, but that’s not fitting for a mud-club member :D
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i fitted them originally after fittiing the lift kit, primarily as a bit of security since i saw a spring pop out and get firly wedged in a bolkes sidewall. and to be honest they weren't really necessary till i fitted shock drops and crancked trailign arms
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This could be interesting, look forward to seeing the pics :P
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Ill take any challenge Ian !
importantly just need to point out that my set up doesnt have jubilee clips! and I dont have the same springs as yours so it wouldnt be a like for like on a technical trial or take into consideration driving our differing styles but I will still go for this trial you propose.
Given that I will participate in your clean clinical trial after that I propose that you and me then do a 'real world' trial. We shall pick the muddiest / wettest bits then see how we fair.
I shall look forward to that
see you there !
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if weather hold out, won't be much mud.
might have to get a pump in to flood the place :)
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The 15th clear on my calendar (at the moment), must come down with the camera :D
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There's always MUD at Whaddon :-))
Do you think Doug i'll get upset if we all turn up and say "we're not playing, we've just come to watch" ?
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I think a little test on the boghill of impossibility is called for.
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I think a little test on the boghill of impossibility is called for.
take it your getting some 44 inch tyres for you bobtail then :)
might be easier as dryer, but with some of those big ruts, could lose your car :lol:
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BOG HILL here we Come!
Get your cones ready Ian!
..and a rope!
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I think a little test on the boghill of impossibility is called for.
take it your getting some 44 inch tyres for you bobtail then :)
might be easier as dryer, but with some of those big ruts, could lose your car :lol:
I dont need big tyres.
I got a V8 and a heavy right boot :twisted:
If any of you do fail to make it i'll be happy to winch you across :(biglaugh):
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I think a little test on the boghill of impossibility is called for.
take it your getting some 44 inch tyres for you bobtail then :)
might be easier as dryer, but with some of those big ruts, could lose your car :lol:
I dont need big tyres.
I got a V8 and a heavy right boot :twisted:
If any of you do fail to make it i'll be happy to winch you across :(biglaugh):
thats how i do things,who needs lockers etc when all u need is a v8 & a long run up 8) full harnesses are advised when it comes to a sudden halt from warp factor 9 :lol:
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I think a little test on the boghill of impossibility is called for.
take it your getting some 44 inch tyres for you bobtail then :)
might be easier as dryer, but with some of those big ruts, could lose your car :lol:
I dont need big tyres.
I got a V8 and a heavy right boot :twisted:
If any of you do fail to make it i'll be happy to winch you across :(biglaugh):
thats how i do things,who needs lockers etc when all u need is a v8 & a long run up 8) full harnesses are advised when it comes to a sudden halt from warp factor 9 :lol:
it's the sudden halt that does it, when thing go snap bang. use mine everyday so will need to pick route and take it easy. third and floor it will only work if very wet if dry, i'd hate to think what will happen to diff as you drop into ruts :)
the pics don't do it justice http://members.mud-club.com/profiles/davidlandy/gallery/Whaddon271104/0/872012-1101672062.JPG the rut the suki dropped in still had about foot clearance under the tyre.
aftermarth :) http://members.mud-club.com/profiles/davidlandy/gallery/Whaddon271104/0/651882-1101672062.JPG
run up to deep bit :shock: http://members.mud-club.com/profiles/davidlandy/gallery/Whaddon271104/2/129520-1101897369.bmp
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Here's a picture of Ollie and his lightweight stuck in the bog of impossibility...the water in the bog is red with peat, it looks like the waters gone rusty from the remains of old Land Rovers :lol:
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I think a little test on the boghill of impossibility is called for.
take it your getting some 44 inch tyres for you bobtail then :)
might be easier as dryer, but with some of those big ruts, could lose your car :lol:
I dont need big tyres.
I got a V8 and a heavy right boot :twisted:
If any of you do fail to make it i'll be happy to winch you across :(biglaugh):
Class Jon, sheer Class!
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I think a little test on the boghill of impossibility is called for.
take it your getting some 44 inch tyres for you bobtail then :)
might be easier as dryer, but with some of those big ruts, could lose your car :lol:
I dont need big tyres.
I got a V8 and a heavy right boot :twisted:
If any of you do fail to make it i'll be happy to winch you across :(biglaugh):
thats how i do things,who needs lockers etc when all u need is a v8 & a long run up 8) full harnesses are advised when it comes to a sudden halt from warp factor 9 :lol:
it's the sudden halt that does it, when thing go snap bang. use mine everyday so will need to pick route and take it easy. third and floor it will only work if very wet if dry, i'd hate to think what will happen to diff as you drop into ruts :)
Dont Worry Ian, BOG HILL never dries out ! so you cant do too much damage. Whats with all this 'take it easy' talk then???
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I think a little test on the boghill of impossibility is called for.
take it your getting some 44 inch tyres for you bobtail then :)
might be easier as dryer, but with some of those big ruts, could lose your car :lol:
I dont need big tyres.
I got a V8 and a heavy right boot :twisted:
If any of you do fail to make it i'll be happy to winch you across :(biglaugh):
thats how i do things,who needs lockers etc when all u need is a v8 & a long run up 8) full harnesses are advised when it comes to a sudden halt from warp factor 9 :lol:
it's the sudden halt that does it, when thing go snap bang. use mine everyday so will need to pick route and take it easy. third and floor it will only work if very wet if dry, i'd hate to think what will happen to diff as you drop into ruts :)
Dont Worry Ian, BOG HILL never dries out ! so you cant do too much damage. Whats with all this 'take it easy' talk then???
as it was mentioned at sibertoft by mel that you never seem to break your car, all because you don't use a heavy right foot. why would i wanna break my car .... not for any challenge, don't prove much and don't show skill :D
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I think a little test on the boghill of impossibility is called for.
take it your getting some 44 inch tyres for you bobtail then :)
might be easier as dryer, but with some of those big ruts, could lose your car :lol:
I dont need big tyres.
I got a V8 and a heavy right boot :twisted:
If any of you do fail to make it i'll be happy to winch you across :(biglaugh):
thats how i do things,who needs lockers etc when all u need is a v8 & a long run up 8) full harnesses are advised when it comes to a sudden halt from warp factor 9 :lol:
it's the sudden halt that does it, when thing go snap bang. use mine everyday so will need to pick route and take it easy. third and floor it will only work if very wet if dry, i'd hate to think what will happen to diff as you drop into ruts :)
Dont Worry Ian, BOG HILL never dries out ! so you cant do too much damage. Whats with all this 'take it easy' talk then???
as it was mentioned at sibertoft by mel that you never seem to break your car, all because you don't use a heavy right foot. why would i wanna break my car .... not for any challenge, don't prove much and don't show skill :D
Peoples driving styles are different , I use the throttle when I think that I have to, some other choose to Blat around. I too have had my share of things breaking despite that.
I am not suggesting to you that you WILL break your car on the BOGHILL cos you probably wont - With your cones fitted youll be able to articlate across it with no probs!
I haven't got cones (or jubilee clips) so will probably have to use my throttle a lot!
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The skill comes in knowing when to go slow and when to pile on the power 8) 8) .
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As slow as possible... as fast as necessary ;-)
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with the fire lit & ready to be stoked 8) although it can be handy in a trial situation if u go in hard as ur wheels are still spinnin & with 750's make a hole bigg enough to stop all the bowlers on 205's :lol: :lol:
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well ill be up for this aswell my 110 v8 roar power n lead boot's anginest ur 2 90's with 300tdi iam up 4 it :(biggrin):
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As slow as possible... as fast as necessary ;-)
Which was the phrase I was trying to remember but couldn't :lol: :lol: .
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well ill be up for this aswell my 110 v8 roar power n lead boot's anginest ur 2 90's with 300tdi iam up 4 it :(biggrin):
yeah - bet u wont even get to the BOGHILL - theres a big puddle to go thru! :wink:
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Cough, cough, splutter, splutter, wheeeeeze, pop....ah yes the roar of a v5 :lol: :lol: :lol:
....and que Tim.....
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Some pics from Gaydon...
Both vehicles (I think - second one has definetley got them) fitted with Dislocation Cones.
Magnified pics show springs still seated, so dislocation cones not doing anything :?
(on two posts as only 3 pics per post allowed)
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Other pics
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Forgive me I've being stupid here, but the whole idea of fitting a cone is to GUIDE THE SPRING back into position after you have caused it pop out of it's mounting.
The fitting of the cone cannot affect your ability to get more "droop". Fitting them to my Discovery would be *pointless* as I still have my anti-roll bars - and hence, my suspension won't drop away *unless* both rear wheels are hanging over nothing...and then I am at the mercy of my brake lines!
I am of the firm belief that if my springs are in position, I am exterting downforce onto my axles .... if they were not in place....I'd be looking "cool" - but skipping my wheels along achieving nothing and going nowhere... think about it - we don't rock crawl here - in mud the thing we lose is TRACTION ..... and fitting cones to get more traction is like trying to use a fireguard made of chocolote.....
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Forgive me I've being stupid here, but the whole idea of fitting a cone is to GUIDE THE SPRING back into position after you have caused it pop out of it's mounting.
The fitting of the cone cannot affect your ability to get more "droop". Fitting them to my Discovery would be *pointless* as I still have my anti-roll bars - and hence, my suspension won't drop away *unless* both rear wheels are hanging over nothing...and then I am at the mercy of my brake lines!
Very true....
Droop is also affected by the travel of the shock absorbers, and the point at which the rear radius arms, and rear A-frame bind (i.e. reach limit of movement on bushes and joint) but (as already mentioned) with a dislocated spring there is no downward force acting on the wheel, thus the wheel will not provide any traction.
So extra droop, IMHO, is pointless.
This is one possible way around it http://www.red-ibex.com/rear_suspension.htm ... even so I doubt the down force applied to the wheel will be enough to get traction.
Ian
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Forgive me I've being stupid here, but the whole idea of fitting a cone is to GUIDE THE SPRING back into position after you have caused it pop out of it's mounting.
The fitting of the cone cannot affect your ability to get more "droop". Fitting them to my Discovery would be *pointless* as I still have my anti-roll bars - and hence, my suspension won't drop away *unless* both rear wheels are hanging over nothing...and then I am at the mercy of my brake lines!
I am of the firm belief that if my springs are in position, I am exterting downforce onto my axles .... if they were not in place....I'd be looking "cool" - but skipping my wheels along achieving nothing and going nowhere... think about it - we don't rock crawl here - in mud the thing we lose is TRACTION ..... and fitting cones to get more traction is like trying to use a fireguard made of chocolote.....
=D> =D>
well said Neil
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Each to his own but in my opinion this cone thing is not being explained in it's full context and I'm probably not capable of exlaining the full merits of a suspension system that has cones as 'part' of it's setup. In either case I don't think anyone should simple disregard someone elses opinion.
I believe the original point of Ians conversation was "do you get more traction from a wheel thats allowed to touch the ground or from a wheel thats hanging in the air?"...I think this is the fundemental point that those who are pro cones are trying to make. Surely a wheel that touches the ground must have more traction than a wheel that doesn't. Whether it actually makes a difference is yet to be proven. How you allow this wheel to touch the ground is what we are all argueing about.
A cone on it's own, probably won't make enough difference but most who fit cones also make other modifications to allow more articulation, which should make the difference on the right terrain !!
I'd also like to put my money on the fact that the 'boghill of impossiblity' will not conclude whether cones are the deciding factor.
See, told you I couldn't explain it clearly :-(
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Mace,
Here's my take - no-one elses :-)
When one wheel is floating in the air - and you have no lockers - it is spinning freely and no power (well not much) is going to the wheel *with* traction.
If you then drop the spinning wheel down onto the ground by moving forward/backward with the wheels *with traction*, with SUFFICIENT downforce, it will grab (hopefully not too much power is being applied!) and gain traction.
If you wait for the wheel to eventually hit the ground using either gravity or some magic force, downforce will be minimum, and the simple fact it is spinning will make it "bounce" back up in accordance with physics (equal and opposite reaction and all that). Can't see how much traction would be gained from this "skittering" approach.
In the US special "shocks" (more like hydraulic rams IMHO!) are used with remote tanks which provide the required downforce to push the wheel/axle down onto the ground - these are low speed manouvers and are not generally mud based.
Having watched a vehicle with all the toys (extreme) fitted tackle a cross axle (apart from the awful sound of it pinging and clanging back into place) - it performed no better then the Series 2 on leafs that followed it (which was a damn site quiter and did not attempt to roll on it's axis!)
*adendum!
Remember the locker is there to enable the wheel *with* traction to do it's job. Similarly the new whizz bang traction enhancement systems on the RR, D3 and Sport do a similar thing, by braking the spinning wheel and allowing the wheels ON the ground, with traction to do their stuff :-)
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Thrasher, I cannot argue with anything you've said which is why i believe trying to cross the boghill won't prove a thing. But simply (not your words) disregarding cones as a waste of time is incorrect. They do have their merits when used as part of a suspension set up.
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I didn't say they were a waste of time :-)
I said : "Forgive me I've being stupid here, but the whole idea of fitting a cone is to GUIDE THE SPRING back into position after you have caused it pop out of it's mounting."
The best test would be to get 1 of each vehicle to drive over a cross axle that would stop a vehicle without a centre difflock - then drive each over and see how they react. The newer vehicles will do the cross axle in different way to the older ones - by merit of their monocoque design....
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But simply (not your words) disregarding cones as a waste of time is incorrect.
as I said Neil...not your words :-)
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Forget the cones... as I have said before, they make no difference to the suspension travel.
The question was "Does dislocation help ?", and that is a wholly more complex discussion.
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I think I've made my opinion of dislocating suspension known.
Although, to be fair, if your garage was at the top of an RTI Ramp it might be worth it :(vamp):
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well, as was painfully pointed out to me, the silly things are "relocation" cones not "dislocation" cones, make that simple change in name and things become clearer :)
As for the concept of dislocating suspension, well most of the places you run out of traction in this country are because of being up to your diffpan in clag of (in most ARC events) a lack of turning circle, how having it's bottom fall off going over bumps in these cases would help is open for discussion.
If you're rock crawling, or doing something equally peculiar then a forced articulation system can probably help, but I've seen around about *no* cases in this country where it would assist, especially not in traditional trials. Learning the inside and out of the vehicle, and (if ruling permits) investing in a set of lockers would seem a better option to me.
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I didn't say they were a waste of time :-)
I said : "Forgive me I've being stupid here, but the whole idea of fitting a cone is to GUIDE THE SPRING back into position after you have caused it pop out of it's mounting."
The best test would be to get 1 of each vehicle to drive over a cross axle that would stop a vehicle without a centre difflock - then drive each over and see how they react. The newer vehicles will do the cross axle in different way to the older ones - by merit of their monocoque design....
sort of what i suggested but everyone is taking it in dfferent ways :? and was only ment to be a bit of general banter, but may be getting a litle out of hand :lol:
All boils down to “each to their ownâ€Â, everyone comes up with that soon as the spring dislocates traction is lost. But when fitting the cones I can get an easy a 2+ inch gap before tyre starts to lift off floor (not got any shock drop adaptors yet). Up till the point when shock stops and starts lifting the axle the tyre is still compressed a little so meaning force is still applied (maybe mine is just the odd one out).
I know people keep saying it doesn’t help through deep mud, but I never said it would. If I could afford to blow £1000+ on front and rear lockers I would. but for the limited use they would get I don’t see the point, as for spending £30 to get that little bit of help on crossing the odd obstacle it’s more realistic for what I want, it boils down to each to their own again.
Take it nobody noticed how the vehicle with spring relocators seem to out perform the fixed ones in getting up the ramp at Gaydon !!!! so somehow they are able to keep traction longer thus getting further up the ramp, maybe they believe in the FORCE and they will themselves up there :roll: .
So basically you want to do mud runs you maybe need big grippy tyres and a lot of right foot :twisted: .
Or if you want to do technical bits like climbs and obstacles maybe suspension mods might help. (I know your all gunna say I can get up any hill with my V8 and foot to the floor but not everyone’s the same!!!!!! And why should we be!!!!)
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to quote David Landy
=D> =D>
well said Ian
:(contented):
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My V8 climbs hill with gentle throttle application - it's the torque that helps, not the heavy foot and spinning wheels. Also, the LSD's help too.
Oh....and CLEARANCE UNDER THE DIFFS :-)
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I've been staying out of this, had this discussion far too many times... but a couple of observations....
The guy in the picture below did very well up the ramp... he's on leaf springs ;-)
I don't believe that just by adding something to give you more droop travel will imrpove your vehicle's ability in a real-world situation. I would suspect than many of the vehicles on the ramp with location cones also have long-travel springs and other suspension modifications... so don't assume that just allowing your springs away from the chassis is going to make things better.... don't forget that doing so also brings with it a number of additional problems.
If you are interested in driving up metal ramps on tarmac, then many of these systems are very good... but when all is said an done, there is no substitute for choosing the right line and driving it properly ;-)
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Take it nobody noticed how the vehicle with spring relocators seem to out perform the fixed ones in getting up the ramp at Gaydon !!!! so somehow they are able to keep traction longer thus getting further up the ramp, maybe they believe in the FORCE and they will themselves up there :roll: .
its a 110 - so its gonna get at least 20" further than a 90! :shock:
I think that Eeyore may have a rear locker.
as you say each to their own - most people are not seeing the merits of them but go buy them as you clearly want to, then every time you get stuck we will take the mick!!! (in a nice way)
:wink: :D
make that 2 sets , andy needs some as well :D :wink:
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I love my Tru-tracs :-)
:(contented):
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make that 2 sets , andy needs some as well :D :wink:
Only need one mate, got one fitted already, tother one I broke. Thats why Tim helped me at Whaddon and you helped me at Sibbertoft, coz me springs they were a poppin.
Dave, you have my permission to take the mick as often as you like too. As long as you all get value for money on the entertainment front, i don't care. I don't take life too seriously.
Hoorah for Mud-Club :(biggrin):
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make that 2 sets , andy needs some as well :D :wink:
Only need one mate, got one fitted already, tother one I broke. Thats why Tim helped me at Whaddon and you helped me at Sibbertoft, coz me springs they were a poppin.
Dave, you have my permission to take the mick as often as you like too. As long as you all get value for money on the entertainment front, i don't care. I don't take life too seriously.
Hoorah for Mud-Club :(biggrin):
not may off-roaders can't take a litle joke, as wouldn't make sense driving in to a mud hole knowing your not going to get out and making a fool of yourselves, or buying a V8 that hate water with typical english weater :lol: :lol:
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Hehe,
Just ask yourself why so many classic British sportscars have to no roof! Odd ... very odd given our climate ;-)
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The best thing I ever did on Snorkly was to fit relocation cones.
It saved Neil having to keep getting his hi lift off his motor to put my springs back in at Tixover :)
Ed
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Just to add a tuppence:
My views on dislocation are equally well known and far too anorak for words! Suffice to say I've met a lot of vehicle designers and engineers in my time.
Flower, sadly, doesn't have a locker (yet.....) but will happily pop springs all day if pushed. I'm easy with this as the very hard springing (she has been known to carry big loads a very long way) limits the compression upwards, so I compensate by dangling further. Works for me.
Interestingly, the other 110 pictured earlier has no dampers (go check if you don't beleive me) - these will limit droop. You'll also not know that the spring is his case is fastened at the top and dislocates from the bottom.
cheers
8)
Eeyore
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Personally I look at them as being an easier way of relocating things when they do get out of shape.
My main worry would be leaving a site with a spring that has been out and had then reseated wrongly sitting on the edge of the spring seat. Then travelling at any speed on the motorway going home and the spring suddenly deciding to jump back into its proper location and having an adverse momentary effect on the vehicles handling.
So the question should really be. Should the suspension be allowed to "dislocate" in the first place.
It's nearly as bad as Should I vote Labour Conservative or LibDem?
Monster Raving Loony Party for me!
A bit of a tip that helped me though is to situate the spring in such a way that the rounded part of the spring makes the first contact with the seat as it will rub and guide itself back in whereas the flat part of the spring will catch and not reseat even with the cones fitted.
Ed
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So the question should really be. Should the suspension be allowed to "dislocate" in the first place.
That's what I said ;-)
Forget the cones... as I have said before, they make no difference to the suspension travel.
The question was "Does dislocation help ?", and that is a wholly more complex discussion.
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Sorry Tim,
Missed that one :(
Ed
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I've been staying out of this, had this discussion far too many times... but a couple of observations....
The guy in the picture below did very well up the ramp... he's on leaf springs ;-)
I don't believe that just by adding something to give you more droop travel will imrpove your vehicle's ability in a real-world situation. I would suspect than many of the vehicles on the ramp with location cones also have long-travel springs and other suspension modifications... so don't assume that just allowing your springs away from the chassis is going to make things better.... don't forget that doing so also brings with it a number of additional problems.
If you are interested in driving up metal ramps on tarmac, then many of these systems are very good... but when all is said an done, there is no substitute for choosing the right line and driving it properly ;-)
Sorry to be a spoil sport but thats a coil sprung series 2
like i said, sorry :oops:
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Fair enough, but I maintain my opinion that you are better off driving well to get past an obstacle than hoping an unseated axle will help.
The other thing is that if you look at the piccy, he has a rear wheel off the ground and the front end has both wheels planted. Not sure if there is a locker at work there or not, but there wouldn't *need* to be.
There are heaps of things going on as the suspension of a vehicle works, and I stand by my view that the RTi test is pretty meaningless outside its own results.
You can design a vehicle to do well on the ramp, but that won't necessarily make it good off-road, and as I have said before, dislocation brings with it as many problems as it claims to solve.
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dunno who said it but the first pic does hav shockies fitted to the motor,just not in the usual place 8) go force n look my son u shall see they are mounted inwardly
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its official - relocation/dislocation cones do not work
I hereby formally announce this topic exhausted and the thread finished.
Thank you
:wink:
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so ypu both got stuck then?? :lol:
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so ypu both got stuck then?? :lol:
nope, thats next sunday! :D
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its official - relocation/dislocation cones do not work
I hereby formally announce this topic exhausted and the thread finished.
Thank you
:wink:
argh but you are wrong :!: they do what they are sold for, relocate the spring once dislocated :roll:
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its official - relocation/dislocation cones do not work
I hereby formally announce this topic exhausted and the thread finished.
Thank you
:wink:
argh but you are wrong :!: they do what they are sold for, relocate the spring once dislocated :roll:
but pointless, like a chocolate teaspoon.
Have you bought yours yet Ian?
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not had chance to do anything to 90 yet, got a few bits to do like cones, s/guard stereo. but atm having to sort out the series, cleaned all the last bits of whaddon mud out of bearings brakes and every other nook and cranny, as need to start thinking about selling it :(
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Just fitted some cones on the rear, i have long travel shocks and a 2 inch lift. Even when i go over a ditch at least one spring used to pop out of its seat, the cones have stopped me havig to get the high lift out to sort this everytime i do this... My opinion, cones are well worth it.... a £35 well spent :)
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I aint going over this again, bored with it now! ...as long as u are happy thats the main thing
:wink:
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£35 cone versus 35p jubilee clip.........hmmm
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£35 cone versus 35p jubilee clip.........hmmm
A good point Well made Ian. =D>
:wink:
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oh yeah..... never thought of that... not a bad idea :(
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£35 cone versus 35p jubilee clip.........hmmm
A good point Well made Ian. =D>
:wink:
Thought you were bored with this Dave ? :lol:
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Andy
I am , but I just couldnt help myself! :wink:
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He's reached the point of being bored of being bored! :) That's how bored he is...