Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Defender => Topic started by: diggerdog36 on December 24, 2007, 21:06:16
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Im sick of fixing my hand brake and looking at getting one., but are there any down sides to the X-Brake (apart from the price)??
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the price
but if you look past that they seem first class i am buying one in the new year
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its a good bit of kit..
It held even when i revd the engine and dumped the clutch whilst the centre diff was locked and I was in low box reverse......
Managed to bend the back plate and twist the disc, but it held....
Just need to machine the disc straight and all will be well with the world again.
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I think there might be issues if I wanted one , later handbrake mechanism and PTO winch. Though they say there is a model suitable I am confused and from description it hangs lower than normal x brake?
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i still cant help thinking that when ive grounded out as i always do, the handbrake drum is always the thing that hits the ground. wouldnt this bend/break a disk?
if it bent it i would be cream crackkered with out any tools. my landy would be going no where.
im still in favour of a well set up drum. getting a bit nit picky now but as an emergency brake i would also far prefer the drum. the land rover drum is pretty big. and the x brake isnt. sounds daft but i have relyed on the hand brake in the past when ive lost vacuum and if your careful it can be effective. you have to be careful though because if your not then it doesent do your engine/gearbox mountings any good.
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i still cant help thinking that when ive grounded out as i always do, the handbrake drum is always the thing that hits the ground. wouldnt this bend/break a disk?
if it bent it i would be cream crackkered with out any tools. my landy would be going no where.
im still in favour of a well set up drum. getting a bit nit picky now but as an emergency brake i would also far prefer the drum. the land rover drum is pretty big. and the x brake isnt. sounds daft but i have relyed on the hand brake in the past when ive lost vacuum and if your careful it can be effective. you have to be careful though because if your not then it doesent do your engine/gearbox mountings any good.
the disc is smaller compared to the Drum
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this is why you need a x-brake :wink:
http://forums.mud-club.com/viewtopic.php?t=53618
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I think there might be issues if I wanted one , later handbrake mechanism and PTO winch. Though they say there is a model suitable I am confused and from description it hangs lower than normal x brake?
I opted for the PTO version. This moves the caliper away from the "12 o'clock" position to nearer the "1 o'clock" position, away from the PTO hole as you can see in the photo:
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q221/Defender_90_photos/XBrake.jpg)
I don't have any reservations about the holding ability of the X-brake as the caliper mechanism is designed to be used on large earth moving equipment. So long as it is kept adjusted correctly, it should be more than up to the job of holding a Land Rover on a slope.
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I was reading that thread about how crap the drum brakes are, thats what got me thinking, I cant see how the disc can lead to getting hung up more, its smaller than the drum, plus, the disc is 10mm thick!!!! That is bloody thick!!!
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Plus you got a 'rock slider' on it too.
Make sure you go for the genuine X-ENGINEERING xbrake...
You don't want people calling you a cheapskate :shock:
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yes, now i have seen it it indeed looks like a reasonable plan. although i would drill the disk myself to remove unnececary weight (but now we ARE nit picking!)
I think the statement about it being used on large earthmoving equipment is a bit of a crazy thing to say though, because you dont know what it was doing. it certainly wasnt the hand brake thats for sure!
But yes i would say i would add it to my list of mods for the ideal landy. It might stand up better to the girlfriend pulling the handbrake up as hard as she can as if she's in a normal car (ooo it makes me cringe! she just cant grasp that its perfectly fine when the lever can still easily be pulled up another 3 notches!)
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The x-brake is a 100 times better than the lar drum, as has been said it has a beefy gaurd to protect it, it will hold better than a drum espec after a days playing (ask about 90% of winch challenge people), x-eng are a qaulity company you wont be fobbed off if you have a problem. The disc setup is also about 5kg lighter than the lr drum.
I have nothing to do with x-eng apart from being a happy customer.
Be warner scrap-iron amongst others sell a cheapo version make sure you buy the genuine one.
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I can't recommend it enough after years of oil going into my handbrake and not knowing about it till it's too late and the rear seal keep packing up i now trust my hand brake it hold's on any hill even with the caravan on the back and an all up weight of 4.6tonnes oh and it never leaks oil now well chuffed fits alright with the overdrive as well.... 8) 8)
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I've got one, tis excellent and very well made.
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I think the statement about it being used on large earthmoving equipment is a bit of a crazy thing to say though, because you dont know what it was doing. it certainly wasnt the hand brake thats for sure!
Disc brakes are used as handbrakes on some earth moving equipment. I used to drive a JCB weighing in at 7.5 tons & this used a disc brake on the rear propshaft as a handbrake.
So long as it was adjusted properly, it held the machine no problem.
BUT you should never rely on the handbrake alone on a slope. In the JCB you would leave the bucket on the ground & in a Landy you need to leave it in gear.
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My mate decided to 'put it on his list'.....
Then this happened.... http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/letsoffroad/Rich/photo#5048741800135555122
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Perfect time to fit one :wink:
Serioulsy though, how did that happen? was he ok.
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Perfect time to fit one :wink:
Serioulsy though, how did that happen? was he ok.
He wasn't in it !!!
On Llangollen Steps, struggled on the slate outcrop, got out, handbrake did'nt hold, and off it went...
I cant tell you how fast it picked up speed...the roll cage was fitted the day before !! It was 'Totalled' !!
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OUCH.... never nice to see, just goes to show, never rely on any handbrake, always as said above, leave it in gear aswell..... ie, not running either!!
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Glad to hear he wasnt in it.
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All the advice I was ever told was they are not as good as a well adjusted drum brake. Admittedly the drum brakes need a lot of service-ing, especially if you go off road, and maybe the time cost of all the service-ing could outway the cost of buying an Xbrake. Somebody once told me they eventually go rusty due to them being a disc and not being used all the time, and hence cleaned all the time, like a normal disc brake.
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All the advice I was ever told was they are not as good as a well adjusted drum brake. Admittedly the drum brakes need a lot of service-ing, especially if you go off road, and maybe the time cost of all the service-ing could outway the cost of buying an Xbrake. Somebody once told me they eventually go rusty due to them being a disc and not being used all the time, and hence cleaned all the time, like a normal disc brake.
Simple answer to that... just ease the lever up for a few seconds each journey./....
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Good thinking. Think I might buy one now. I'm sick of taking the handbrake drum to bits to clean it. :?
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After reading this thread, I was jolted into ordering one. Should be fitting it Friday :)
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you really wont regret it lobster, they are a cracking bit of kit!
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Thanks, I hope so, I could have got half a Before-n-After for the price!
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Fitting was delayed because it took a few days of faff to finally get all the bits I wanted (although x-eng were very apologetic about their cock-ups). But I fitted it earlier this week. I can't say it was the easiest job in practice, because of fiddly clearance issues around the exhaust, and the fact that I don't have a 2-post lift. But it does seem to work very well now it's fitted.
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Somebody once told me they eventually go rusty due to them being a disc and not being used all the time, and hence cleaned all the time, like a normal disc brake.
I'd think that wouldn't be a problem as it's a holding brake not a service brake, so a bit of rust probably makes it better.
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I think the statement about it being used on large earthmoving equipment is a bit of a crazy thing to say though, because you dont know what it was doing. it certainly wasnt the hand brake thats for sure!
It depends what you class as large, This is what we call a large wheel loader at work
(http://www.monsterbagger.de/fotos-galerie/Radladerp1n5.jpg)
I doubt however said the caliper came off a large earth mover had that in mind
The back hoe loaders on the over hand use a similare sized caliper as a hand brake.
It does look though like the caliper used by X-eng was designed for a bigger disc.
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I think the statement about it being used on large earthmoving equipment is a bit of a crazy thing to say though, because you dont know what it was doing. it certainly wasnt the hand brake thats for sure!
It depends what you class as large, This is what we call a large wheel loader at work
(http://www.monsterbagger.de/fotos-galerie/Radladerp1n5.jpg)
I doubt however said the caliper came off a large earth mover had that in mind
The back hoe loaders on the over hand use a similare sized caliper as a hand brake.
It does look though like the caliper used by X-eng was designed for a bigger disc.
Yeah thats what i call large earthmoveing equipment as well. a JCB might be earth moving equipment, and it is quite large, but not large earth moving equipment!
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I vaguely remeber a convesation with hte guy from X-Eng at Donnington and the calliper was originaly a handbrake calliper from a Backhoe loader, probably around 9 tonnes capacity like a JCB 3CX, though not actually a JCB.
The pads are sintered which stops them getting mashed when full of mud, it also explains why they are so over-engineered and damned expensive.
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fitted x brake to mine and its one of the best mods ive done ,my old hand brake was crap i think all landies should have as standed fitment :lol:
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Everyone says that the standard brake is crap...
Ive never had an issue with mine... 3 clicks and it will hold it on any incline on or off road..
I suppose less hassle to adjust / clean though, and they look cool :)
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Everyone says that the standard brake is crap...
Ive never had an issue with mine... 3 clicks and it will hold it on any incline on or off road..
:clap: I have never had an issue with my handbrakes...will hold landy on slipway whilst winching boat up beach...can't be that bad.
Granted they need stripping & all moving components copper greasing but after I have done that they are fine.
Dan....don't start about the boat or excellent engine =; :lol: :hurryup:
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TBH the handbrake on Blue is damn good, though I think I've stretched the cable again (I know I have on the LSe but again that's a really good handbrake, perhaps because it's not had much use).
thing is the handbrake on the TDi is rubbish, truely rubbish. It's the later direct-entry one, it's had a new cable on it and thorough strip-down but it's still woefully inadequate.
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Part of the problem seems to be that the output oil seal on the gearbox goes, and even though they've actually designed in a system that theoretically allows the oil to drain past the handbrake, you end up with oil-impregnated brake shoes. At least, that's what happened with 2 of mine.
To be fair, the 101 handbrake was great, until Ben drove it round the yard with the handbrake on...
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Granted they need stripping & all moving components copper greasing but after I have done that they are fine.
My experience is copper grease is good for stuff like bolts that don't move, but on hand brake mechanisms and similar moving parts it just turns to a sticky paste and causes them to seize prematurely. I find they last longer just cleaned thoroughly and reassembled dry.
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The standard H/brake on my 90 is totally useless, would get more hold putting a fag paper under the rear wheel :lol: :lol: :lol:
Definately the next thing on my list when I can afford one.
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Granted they need stripping & all moving components copper greasing but after I have done that they are fine.
My experience is copper grease is good for stuff like bolts that don't move, but on hand brake mechanisms and similar moving parts it just turns to a sticky paste and causes them to seize prematurely. I find they last longer just cleaned thoroughly and reassembled dry.
They seize up down here (salt air) if asswmbled dry. I have never had problems with the copper grease method. 8-[
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The standard H/brake on my 90 is totally useless, would get more hold putting a fag paper under the rear wheel :lol: :lol: :lol:
Definately the next thing on my list when I can afford one.
Just need to setup/adjust properly & they work fine :lol:
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Is x-brake overpriced?
When I see they sell an adjustable A-frame joint for £35.99 where elsewhere the exact same item cost £20.56 I can't help wondering exactly what we are paying for in the x-brake, is a fair chunk of the price for the innovation only?
I'd pay over the odds for convince of plug and play solutions but I like to have an idea how much I would be getting stung by so I can make a judgment call.
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Is x-brake overpriced?
When I see they sell an adjustable A-frame joint for £35.99 where elsewhere the exact same item cost £20.56 I can't help wondering exactly what we are paying for in the x-brake, is a fair chunk of the price for the innovation only?
I'd pay over the odds for convince of plug and play solutions but I like to have an idea how much I would be getting stung by so I can make a judgment call.
I can't see the A Frame ball joint on there website :-k Found it HERE (http://www.x-eng.co.uk/X-Ball.asp).
It does stated it's got better range than most on market.
R&D costs serious money & needs to be recouped somehow. I have some X Eng gear, I can highly recommend them, they are superb...although I don't NEED the X Brake :lol:
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I can't see the A Frame ball joint on there website :-k Found it HERE (http://www.x-eng.co.uk/X-Ball.asp).
It does stated it's got better range than most on market.
Are they talking about extended range over standard ball though? What makes me suspicious is the photograph is EXACTLY the same unit depicted in the photo of the one at paddocks (and Bearmach catologue), but X-ENG have blown up the image larger and cropped it but there is no doubt its the same photo (light reflection shading, angle of unit). I have posted the images on another thread here ... http://www.mud-club.com/forum/index.php/topic,54776.0.html
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Simple answer is I have no idea :lol:
Give them a call. They have been very helpful when I have spoken to them :D
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Is x-brake overpriced?
When I see they sell an adjustable A-frame joint for £35.99 where elsewhere the exact same item cost £20.56 I can't help wondering exactly what we are paying for in the x-brake, is a fair chunk of the price for the innovation only?
I'd pay over the odds for convince of plug and play solutions but I like to have an idea how much I would be getting stung by so I can make a judgment call.
Do you have some personal axe to grind with X-Eng?? Plenty of places like Devon 4x4 etc aren't as cheap as Paddocks. They are not warehouses with phones selling several million of pounds worth of stock. If you're happy with the price of paddocks buy it from them.
I think you'll find from anyone that has dealt with X-Eng that have excellent business ethics and a first class customer support.
Cheers
Steve
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Do you have some personal axe to grind with X-Eng?? Plenty of places like Devon 4x4 etc aren't as cheap as Paddocks. They are not warehouses with phones selling several million of pounds worth of stock. If you're happy with the price of paddocks buy it from them.
I think you'll find from anyone that has dealt with X-Eng that have excellent business ethics and a first class customer support.
Cheers
Steve
No axe, just a potential customer asking questions amongst my peer group, researching the market... is that no allowed?
This is a independent forum where such I felt questions can be asked/debated without groundless company bashing. Some of the products appear impressive and others (In my opinion) like x-lite leave me asking more questions of validity.
If the A-frame ball joint is the same as the one sold by paddocks I will of course buy from them as there is a massive price difference (why on earth would I pay more?), if the X-eng balljoint has more engineering to its design to qualify the price then it would still be in for consideration - hence asking the question.
If the X-brake is kick-ass conversion as it appears then I may purchase one from X-Eng in the near future but I will continue to ask questions and research the market until such time I am satisfied and the wife lets me buy one - thanks very much. If the product meets expectations I would sing its praises, if it didn't I will rant about it. My first posts on this forum where ranting about the poor quality of tree sliders (and service) I obtained from a company, where previously everyone else ranted how good they where.
I sometimes fear people spend an awful lot of money on products (in all walks of life) and the Emperor Clothes syndrome kicks in swearing blind things are the bee's knees when really they have been stung, so I think if a product/company can stand up to peer group questioning then all is good and such debate is better for the company/product concerned.
What if I asked about HICLONE? Lots of people swear blind they work, others say snake oil con - I think that is a good case to ask questions no?
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I do know they make almost nowt on the X-Brake, the calliper itself is a very large chunk of the price.
In terms of R&D, profit etc these guys aren't in the same league as most car manufactuers. Most of the stuff you buy for your car will double in price every time it changes hands, I don't think £215 for the X-brake is enough, but they've got to price it to sell.
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well, from a satisfied X-ENG customer, BLINDING. brilliant bit of kit, probably the best money i have spent on my motor.
:clap: :dance:
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No axe, just a potential customer asking questions amongst my peer group, researching the market... is that no allowed?
Your touchy :roll:, did I say it wasn't allowed. I was going by your posts here, where you did not ask questions on how an X-brake performed you asked if it was overpriced and then you implied that X-Eng marks up their products to over inflated levels. Didn't seem like you were researching from your peers.
I've just read your X-Lite post, and it doesn't help me change my view. If you've got a mate that says they are good, go and see his truck at night and see for yourself. Or is it again the fact that you think they are overpriced. If you think they are overpriced, then price up the components, they have a bulb, spring clip, a bulb holder and a milled and annodised enclosure. See what total you get and then you'll see what mark up X-Eng have and you'll know your answer instead of asking on a forum where you won't get an answer.
It seems to me that you think all their prices are over the top and what you are seeking is for other like minded people to agree, not whether the products work or not.
You are quite free to do this, as I'm quite free to post my opinion of your posts, so carry on.
Cheers
Steve
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I do know they make almost nowt on the X-Brake, the calliper itself is a very large chunk of the price.
In terms of R&D, profit etc these guys aren't in the same league as most car manufactuers. Most of the stuff you buy for your car will double in price every time it changes hands, I don't think £215 for the X-brake is enough, but they've got to price it to sell.
If they are paying over £100 for the caliper then i would be looking at somthing else. and the other £100 is more than enough to make a bracket and a disc (they havent even drilled the disc which would lighten it no end.
Most cars with rear discs use a caliper with the same mechanism pretty much, its just they have a hydraulic bit as well.
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The standard H/brake on my 90 is totally useless, would get more hold putting a fag paper under the rear wheel :lol: :lol: :lol:
Definately the next thing on my list when I can afford one.
Just need to setup/adjust properly & they work fine :lol:
Ok, I need some pointers on how to set it up properly please :)
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No axe, just a potential customer asking questions amongst my peer group, researching the market... is that no allowed?
Your touchy :roll:, did I say it wasn't allowed. I was going by your posts here, where you did not ask questions on how an X-brake performed you asked if it was overpriced and then you implied that X-Eng marks up their products to over inflated levels. Didn't seem like you were researching from your peers.
I've just read your X-Lite post, and it doesn't help me change my view. If you've got a mate that says they are good, go and see his truck at night and see for yourself. Or is it again the fact that you think they are overpriced. If you think they are overpriced, then price up the components, they have a bulb, spring clip, a bulb holder and a milled and annodised enclosure. See what total you get and then you'll see what mark up X-Eng have and you'll know your answer instead of asking on a forum where you won't get an answer.
It seems to me that you think all their prices are over the top and what you are seeking is for other like minded people to agree, not whether the products work or not.
You are quite free to do this, as I'm quite free to post my opinion of your posts, so carry on.
Cheers
Steve
err, you appear to troll baiting now which will ruin the thread. Needlessly getting over defensive of X-Eng by reading more into my questions than I intended, I am not attacking the company! Are you in some way associated with them? I have no ulterior motive and do not want to get into a slanging match or having to justify why I made posts at ever step. I am not anti- X-Eng.
I made reservations on the x-lite clear and never once mentioned any thoughts on the price, you can't go making such conclusions and making up things up about what I think (thread here http://www.mud-club.com/forum/index.php/topic,53472.msg478919.html#msg478919 for all to see). They are of good *build* quality - but I questioned their validity as lamps, again as a potential customer I was asking for the opinion of others. In the end I decided against buying a set.
So far didn't feel the need to ask about how the x-brake performed as the testimony of those who have them fitted is clear, which is looking good for x-eng and my money.
The x-ball price so far appears to be over inflated - (I am still open to being told its a different, better special x-eng adjustable ball though) but if not, and someone says they are going to buy one I will say wait a minute... you get a better deal at xyz company.
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The standard H/brake on my 90 is totally useless, would get more hold putting a fag paper under the rear wheel :lol: :lol: :lol:
Definately the next thing on my list when I can afford one.
Just need to setup/adjust properly & they work fine :lol:
Ok, I need some pointers on how to set it up properly please :)
get under with a flathead(i think) and on the drum you will see a hole with a screw. turn it one way and then keep testing the handbrake. if it holds better then you turned it the rigth way, if it doesnt turn it the other way!
(if the screw wont turn anymore then you have to adjust a nut somewhere on the wire IIRC, but ill wait to see if someone knows better)
(or if it still doesnt hold take the shoes off and clean it up, its probably full of mud! hence the main reason to buy an X BRAKE!)
hope this helps.
R
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Thanks for the positive comment about the X-Brake.
I think the statement about it being used on large earthmoving equipment is a bit of a crazy thing to say though, because you dont know what it was doing. it certainly wasnt the hand brake thats for sure!
it's used as a handbrake on JCB's, loaders, dumpers & tippers. OK, it's not 'Large' by your standards, but even a JCB is large compared to a Land Rover - but I guess Large is subjective.
Are they over priced?
The price has gone up recently - but we were faced with price rises on several of the components which amount to more than the rise. We currently make £5 less on each brake than we did at launch. However, you now get a much better product. The original disks were just laser cut from steel sheet. The current ones are cut then machined which gives much better surface regularity and flatness.
All the profit from X-Eng has been put back into R&D. Ask anyone who knows me - I'm not exactly living it up on the proceeds.
We give reasonable discounts to clubs and put a lot of money back in to the sport in the form of sponsorship of individuals and events.
When you see new laptops for £100 and a battery drill for a fiver - yes the handbrake seems over-priced.
Hand on heart I wish everything could be cheaper. The only way I can see it happening is by doing what everyone else seems to do and switch manufacturing to China. It's tempting - but as far as possible we'll support manufacturing in the UK.
Si
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Whenever I've spoken to anyone from X-Eng, I've always been impressed by their business ethics. I think trying to stick with British industry is admirable. However, as Si says, it comes at a price. There will come a time when it is no longer cheap to manufacture in China as their economy grows. But another country will come along to replace them, and you can be sure it won't be the UK!
Personally, i think the X-Brake is reasonably priced..... although I got mine at the old price :D
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Si
Thanks for joining the group!
Dont go to China...
From what i have heard, X-Eng products may well be ever so slightly overpriced, but the support that you lot give is well worth the difference :)
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It's good to see a company representative come onto a forum and support the discussion on their product in such an open way :clap:
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If they are paying over £100 for the caliper then i would be looking at somthing else. and the other £100 is more than enough to make a bracket and a disc (they havent even drilled the disc which would lighten it no end.
Most cars with rear discs use a caliper with the same mechanism pretty much, its just they have a hydraulic bit as well.
I know the sort of callipers you are refering to but TBH they are nowhere near the quality of the unit X-Eng use. In fact many disk-handbrake type callipers are unreliable in their orignal application, but furthermore the pads used in the calliper are designed to work when imersed in mud, which typical car types are not. For a LR the X-Eng calliper is probably a bit of overkill, unless you regularly park your fully loaded LR and trailer on a 1 in 4, but it's reasuring to know it's more than up to the job.
Had I got the money I'd be having one and I know for a fact that I can't make one myself for any less.
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IM NOT that genned up on these i admit, but , you get the complete kit, a caliper, disc and all the relevant brackets and bits ect to fit, and its £200 mark.
from the general concensus its good quality parts and not chinese crap.
i know £200 is a very different ammount of money to different people, but looking at the facts, it doesnt sound dear for a quality component such as this to me, im not saying its cheap, it isnt, but its definately not overpriced by much if it is at all.
you got to be realistic, to many people look at some of th crappy components in the magazines and compare prices, but the goods HAVE to be like or like.
not only that i gather its all 100% british, is that not worth £50 aswell alone.
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It's good to see a company representative come onto a forum and support the discussion on their product in such an open way :clap:
Thanks for the welcome!
I'm pretty active on the LR4x4 forum as SimonR (as well as difflock & pirate). I think the forums are tremendously important and have given us all a sense of community otherwise impossible.
I always meant to join the Mud club - we usually seemed to wind up camped next door to you at Billing.
Something my friend Chris (GBMud on LR4x4) said was that you remember the quality of something long after what it cost. Although that's not an excuse for making stuff expensive, thinking about it though - he's right. Things like my Mobile Storage Systems Store-draw. I have no idea how much I paid (though remember thinking it was expensive) but I use it every day, it's brilliantly made and I'd buy another one like a shot.
Si
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welcome SI, good to see you over here aswell :clap:
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Nothing is ever overpriced - the price is the price and if you don't want to pay then don't buy the item.
I've had a number of bits and pieces from Simon - bought mainly at he shows - including the X brake - I've never been disappointed with the product or the service