Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Defender => Topic started by: Magnum335 on October 07, 2006, 17:03:04
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Has anyone got these figures to hand? I can never find them when i need them....
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111bhp & 190Ibft i think
same as the 200 tdi
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Cheers boyo!
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but later 300's had a boost of about 20bhp - i think
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but later 300's had a boost of about 20bhp - i think
na the autos were about 114 IIRC
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Late model defender 110s had 118bhp.
Some late disco's had 118 too.
Torque curve is very different to 200 so power comes in lower and smoother.
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I disagree...
200Tdi in a Defender had 107bhp and 198lbft of torque (hence the 200Tdi name)
300Tdi and a Defender and a Disco had 111bhp and 205lbft of torque - another reason why the R380 gearbox was introduced (R380 can in theory take 380Nm of torque - not that a standard 300Tdi gets anywhere near this)
No late model 110 had 118bhp... AFAIK.... the late models may actually be lower than the above figures due to EGR and CAT etc.
The only 110" 300Tdi's that had more power (132bhp) were the SAS spec ones, that had the pumps set up properly and flowed standard intercoolers AFAIK (though still made 120bhp and 225lbft without the intercooler)!! These were done by an outside company :wink:
Auto Discoverys had 114 and closer to 122bhp with the later ECU controlled, fly by wire, 300Tdi's. Not sure on the torque figures, but these should have improved at the same time.
Torque and power curves on the 200Tdi and 300Tdi are very similar, both run direct injection, both run very similar injectors and injector pumps, though the design of the head is slightly different AFAIK.
300Tdi is definetly the more refined engine, though at times slightly harder to work on (though some stuff is easier).
Both 200Tdi and 300Tdi respond welll to tuning.
I would actually like to get hold of a full ECU controlled Tdi (well the injectors, FIP etc etc) to fit to my 90... with the right kit (that I have access to) they go very well when chipped - but I would go a bit further than the standrad remapped fuel map :wink: :twisted:
Ian
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barnyfarmer,
Just read your signiture... what have you done to yours to get 150bhp and 263 lbft of torque???
Ian
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barnyfarmer,
Just read your signiture... what have you done to yours to get 150bhp and 263 lbft of torque???
Ian
dunno about him but mine is gettin an allisport intercooler & a new zaust to help things along & im aiming for about there aswell
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ITG Air filter, Allisport Intercooler and pump tuning, Turner's Engineering Performance gasflowed cylinderhead.
The performance figures are what someone quoted but others say it is likely to be larger than what i have down because the gasflow head performance varies with the way it is driven. I wont know unless it goes on a dyno....
You'll be up there with those figures with the intercooler and zorst. I'm toying with the idea of the twisted performance tornado exhaust and a hybrid garret turbo.....
Porny, are you talking about a 300tdi with EDC? How much do you know about them?
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TBH IMHO a zaust like the twisted one or likewise will make a small difference but ive found its mostly noise,im sure porny will disagree but he knows his stuff about zausts,
ive had my 90 on the rollers at dastek up here & was 119.7 bhp & 180 Ibft with just the pump opened up & a desilenced exhaust.........
Once i get the new zaust on & intercooler in im planning on getting it back on to see what it puts out,was looking at a kit on the web which was the intercooler,head,zaust & other bits for £750 ish & now i cant find it :lol:
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Yeah i share the view on the exhaust just being for noise, i think that will be the finishing touch. Will have to see what the turbo market looks like when i get my next student loan through!! :twisted:
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http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8825605441819995085
mine with a TD rear section & straight through centre
new exhaust is straight through front to rear & comes out through the rear wing,should sound about the same i think
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Sounds areet!
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Chavs with Corsas... This topic.
Anyone see a difference :?
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Chavs with Corsas... This topic.
Anyone see a difference :?
myself & barnyfarmer have driving licenses so thus get to explore the capabilitys of our vehicles so..................
SHUT YER HOLE :lol: :wink:
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Chavs with Corsas... This topic.
Anyone see a difference :?
Dew if you don't like this thread don't bother posting on it, go and look at something else. You don't have to express your opinion about everything. Just 'cos your head thinks it you don't need to type it!
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Chavs with Corsas... This topic.
Anyone see a difference :?
Dew,
Yet another worthwhile post to a topic. :?:
Regardless of the fact you don’t even have a driving licence, or a car you can actually drive legally (you can't drive your 110" as it has 12 seats)…
And more so, you have absolutely no practical engineering or engine experience (please let us know if I’m wrong, maybe we could compare qualifications and jobs), so in reality you can’t add anything informative to a thread -i.e. something you actually know, not that you’ve copied from another thread…
Please can you STOP filling an informative thread with meaning less spiel… especially when it’s a topic you know absolutely nothing about.
When you do know something, please feel free to post, or if you want to lean – then ask questions - no body minds if people ask questions about something they don’t understand – that’s the good thing about these forums…..
At the moment all you do you is make yourself look a complete idiot.
I’ve no doubt you’re going try and come back with some attempt at humour, or try and start some argument ending in some derogatory comments…
If so, feel free…. But just remember you’re the one that’ll end up looking stupid.
Ian
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well said porny!!!!
silly post in serious tech topics gets very annoying from someone who obvious nows nothing!
especially ones like this that i am following as interested in performace upgrades.
not a chav in a corsa, my disco gets used properly but it is also daily driver.
got a de-silenced exhaust - side exit (not that that makes a difference :D ) and a tweeked pump.
not sure which route to go at the moment!
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WHOA chill peoples. Though i side wholeheartedly with teh majority.
You say chavs with corsa's, you are entitled to this thought but please think about it. Lets have a little comparison:
Chavs drive around at high speed with high pitched exhausts.
We drive quite slowly with more of a rumble.
Chavs hoon around blaring music out of stolen sound systems with no consideration for the general public.
We dont; the majority of land rover drivers are couteous and well driven, we cant afford to make any more enemies than we already have.
Chavs dont pay insurance
We do
Chavs only mod their car for appearance and cred.
We (well i) mod our cars for ability, economy and comfort.
Comparison over, i say no more on that issue.
In our defence however, we actually use our vehicles on the road and quite happily accept they are not 100% perfect out of teh factory so we modify them to tailor our needs, to make them easier to drive. Although i dont know you, i seem to have got the gyst that you dont have a drivers licence and therefore dont actually know why we do this.
If that makes us like chavs in corsas in your opinion, so be it. Everyone is entitled to a view, but like others have said, if it isnt relevant or costructive, you dont have to say it or post on the forum. if you feel strongly enough to post about it, why not start your own thread and see how many people share your view instead of hijacking and runining other peoples!
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Thumbs: well said also!
If you want to transform the disco in the broadest way i would fit an uprated intercooler, it really is the best of both worlds:
If you want to drive economically it allows you to with the extra torque available, and if you need the extra poke its there if you need it. It will pay itself off at the fuel pumps. I see no drawbacks to it, unlike the uprated turbos which increase fuel consumption.
Another cheap way of increasing MPG is to buy a boost guage, it alows you to monitor your driving style and back off the throttle when you dont actually need it. You'd be amazed at how much you can back off and hold teh same speed!
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boost gauge is a good idea, i do try and back of the throtle when on longer runs at speed, not so worried about mpg as i dont do a million miles, just would like that little extra omph!
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Bolt a big off turbo on it and a hooooooooooge intercooler and tune teh pump internally.
How have you tweaked the pump? With the screws on the outside?
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ITG Air filter, Allisport Intercooler and pump tuning, Turner's Engineering Performance gasflowed cylinderhead.
The performance figures are what someone quoted but others say it is likely to be larger than what i have down because the gasflow head performance varies with the way it is driven. I wont know unless it goes on a dyno....
150bhp.... you should be close, but I doubt it's more than that. In all honesty a lot of people mention figures, but they are not always achievable (a lot of factors dictate actual performance)... I also don't believe some peoples rolling road figures - as not all rolling roads are the same!! Useful as a comparison between two cars though (if done on the same rolling road)
250 – 260lbft is about right with the torque though….
You'll be up there with those figures with the intercooler and zorst. I'm toying with the idea of the twisted performance tornado exhaust and a hybrid garret turbo....
Twisted performance exhaust…. Too may fixings IMHO, plus I cut my finger on the Td5 at one of the shows.
My 90 runs a competition system from Exact Fabrication – www.exactfabrication.co.uk - all in high grade stainless, all TIG welded, and 2.5†from the turbo back. Does definitely spin up faster (less lag), and sounds very nice!! (will try and record it at some point)
Chris will make you what ever you want, and his work is to a ‘very’ high standard!!
(I’ve got no connection, just a happy customer!)
As for the Turbo, speak to Andy at Allisport (though I know a few other people do them too)….
Just make sure it’s properly matched, too big and you’ll get loads of lag.
If I had the money, I’d fit a VNT (variable nozzle/vain turbo) – they make a massive difference to low down torque. You can fit the one off the 2.8TGV engine – the Brazilian made 300Tdi (but their 2.8L version) – you can use all the TGV manifold etc etc – which makes it look like a factory job.
Porny, are you talking about a 300tdi with EDC? How much do you know about them?
A bit… what do you want to know?
mine with a TD rear section & straight through centre
new exhaust is straight through front to rear & comes out through the rear wing,should sound about the same i think
Mike, your exhaust sounds nice…. Not as nice as mine though!! ;)
If you want to transform the disco in the broadest way i would fit an uprated intercooler, it really is the best of both worlds.
If you want to drive economically it allows you to with the extra torque available, and if you need the extra poke its there if you need it. It will pay itself off at the fuel pumps. I see no drawbacks to it, unlike the uprated turbos which increase fuel consumption.
Another cheap way of increasing MPG is to buy a boost guage, it alows you to monitor your driving style and back off the throttle when you dont actually need it. You'd be amazed at how much you can back off and hold teh same speed!
A more efficient intercooler does make a difference, but you need to adjust the FIP to suit
Uprated turbo increase fuel consumption…
Yes and no…
No more so than a big intercooler and the FIP (fuel injection pump) mods.
What really matters is how you drive it. If you drive very lightly on the throttle then due to the extra torque and power you will be able to pull a higher gear, use less throttle etc etc – which in theory you will actually see an improvement in MPG….
However, if you use the extra power available then the MPG will drop (the simplest view is that the more diesel you put in, the more you will use – and to get power out of a diesel you add more fuel!!)
So in theory, driven carefully with a tweaked pump, hybrid turbo, big intercooler your MPG should be as good as before the mods…. Driven hard though, you will use more fuel!!
Boost gauge…
I was running two in my 90 last week!!! :wink:
Been playing around with boost control, and preventing waste gate creep… that’s another story though.
A boost gauge is a helpful addition, but I don’t really see the need for one to be fitted all the time… once the boost is set then just leave it be – just check it every so often.
More important (IMHO) is the ability to measure EGT (exhaust gas temp) – more fuel in a diesel = higher EGT (a petrol works the other way round).
If you start getting higher than 750-800°c then you need to back off the fuelling a bit (or lift off the throttle) – to a high will start cracking exhaust manifolds (or more!!)
How have you tweaked the pump? With the screws on the outside?
Screws on the outside – are we talking the max fuel screw?? Or something else?
(If Allisport tweaked your pump, this hasn’t been adjusted :wink: )
On mine (at the moment) the diaphragm is set at max and the star wheel has been adjusted a bit… need to fit a thermocouple to measure EGT before I start going further…
Plus I’m waiting for Andy at Allisport to finish my ‘custom’ intercooler!!!
- Sorry about the long thread……
Ian
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Yeah it was my diaphragm inside that was tweaked, so i still have the outside screws to fiddle with should i want more power, but i am happy with it at teh moment really.
You are correct in the intercooler will increase fuel consumption if you drive it to the max, i however have no experience with the big turbos and assumed they increased it, will they decrease it if you drive it economically?
I drive for economy. Currently averaging 35mpg.
As i said, my boost guage is there to keep a check on unrequired throttle, not for tweaking the pressure. I see the boost guage as a sort of exhaust flow guage, so more exhaust means more mix has gone in. I can be at 0.6bar doing 55mph maybe edging up, but i stick at 55 really, so when i see i am doin .6 bar, i back off down to 0.3 or 0.4 and it holds 55 very nicely. That is how i use it, and for me it works.
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Yeah it was my diaphragm inside that was tweaked, so i still have the outside screws to fiddle with should i want more power, but i am happy with it at teh moment really.
There is still more to tweak inside :wink: :D
As i said, my boost guage is there to keep a check on unrequired throttle, not for tweaking the pressure. I see the boost guage as a sort of exhaust flow guage, so more exhaust means more mix has gone in. I can be at 0.6bar doing 55mph maybe edging up, but i stick at 55 really, so when i see i am doin .6 bar, i back off down to 0.3 or 0.4 and it holds 55 very nicely. That is how i use it, and for me it works.
55mph whats that then :lol: :wink: .... my 90 will happily pull/sit on 90/95mph (on the speedo - and on a private road)... still runs a standard intercooler.
I agree with the boost gauge, and it can be a helpful toy when trying to get the best MPG... I did use to use the one in my other 90 like that at times. Is your calibrated??? - I've had a few TIM ones in the past and they have varied quite a bit in accuracy!!! (pm me if you want yours checked)
Is your max boost pressure still at 1 bar??
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Is your max boost pressure still at 1 bar??
I only have a 1bar guage fitted and it wants to go off the scale and i have never openend it up fully. I havent been beyond 85 cos i bottled but i feel it will do more.
55mph whats that? 55mph is 35mpg thats wht that is!!!
You will learn about me i do not want speed, i want torque, and if that extra torque means a bit more go i'm not going to complain!!!
I am actually thinking about getting a 1.5 bar TIM one, may it be an idea to have it delivered to you first to save on one set of postage?
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dont bother with a TIM one,i did & now use an autometer one (what the drift guys use :wink: ) & its much more acurate
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How much is one of those and do they come in 52mm? And do they blend in with a landy dash?
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How much is one of those and do they come in 52mm? And do they blend in with a landy dash?
a tim one is £25 from halfrouds,
an autometer one is £25 from above & its silver with a changable colour face,it looks no bad on my 90 beside the dash binacle
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This be my current...
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This be my current...
GTTF & fit a proper one
the autometer reads in bar & psi right up to 30 psi in 2psi increments
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GTTF?????
I look on halfruds webby but nowt there... can you send a pic of yours?
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catch me on msn & if you can recive pics on ur mobby ill send u one over :wink:
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Chavs with Corsas... This topic.
Anyone see a difference :?
No chavs, No Corsas ... I guess I do see a subtle difference, and even if there isn't one, so what ?
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Tim boost gauges…
I've used the 2 bar ones in the past, not that bad (plus I can get them trade)... I've had some that were spot on in accuracy... and others that were miles off!
I actually spoke to the importers and they have no way of checking them!!
Autometer ones aren't bad (I think I can get them trade too!), but for quality the VDO ones are very nice!!! (but not cheap)
At the moment I just use industrial ones (from a local pneumatics dealer) - cheaper and accurate - but no back light and not that well damped. But mine are not permanently installed, I just connect them up when I want – have a nice little aluminium mounting :wink:
I’ve also been playing around with decent regulators/bleed valve…
IMHO easier to play with the boost with one of these, rather than shortening the actuator (especially on a 300Tdi!!!).
The one I’m using at the moment is a nice bit of kit, and is spot on – no peaks etc etc. Was running round at 17/18psi which goes quite well, but I need to adjust the fuelling to suit.
Have also played with stopping waste gate creep (i.e. stopping the actuator moving until it sees 14psi – as standard, an actuator will start to move, thus opening the waste gate before this, so boost takes longer to build up to the pre set level) – in all honesty doesn’t make that much difference on a 300Tdi – is slightly better, but not a huge amount.
You can also allow it to temporary overboost….
A 1 bar gauge is not really enough, even as standard you will find most 300Tdi will overboost slightly (usually about 1.1bar)… really you need 1.5bar or 2 bar.
Ian
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Yup i've found out a 1 bar isnt enough!!!
I may just jump in and buy a VDO gauge..... At least they will blend in more. I dont really like the silver bezel on teh autometer ones, although they look good. Hmmmmmm...... decisions.....
Dont spose you can get the VDO's trade can you?
One of my mates has a dump valve fitted on his 200, i am of the belief this does nothing except change from the usual clatter clatter clatter clatter to clatter clatter whoosh clatter clatter whosh... Am i correct?
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GAAA teh vdo goes up to three bar!!! not required....
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Yup i've found out a 1 bar isnt enough!!!
I may just jump in and buy a VDO gauge..... At least they will blend in more. I dont really like the silver bezel on teh autometer ones, although they look good. Hmmmmmm...... decisions.....
Dont spose you can get the VDO's trade can you?
One of my mates has a dump valve fitted on his 200, i am of the belief this does nothing except change from the usual clatter clatter clatter clatter to clatter clatter whoosh clatter clatter whosh... Am i correct?
That was 'my' exact description posted in another thread!!!.... :wink:
On a petrol yes, on a diesel no point IMHO.
Looking (again) at VDO one, looks the nicest, but not very well laid out, more a quide than an accurate measurement.
The nomad one ones are quite nice:
http://www.nomadracing.co.uk/gauges.html#
Or for bling:
http://www.turbobits.co.uk/acatalog/digital_turbo_boost_pressure_gauge.html
No sure what I can get trade at moment... I know I can't get VDO ones...
But as you say 3 bar is a bit much..
Is a shame that nobody does a diesel specific one - as you do not need the minus numbers - you will never see a vacuum on a diesel!!!
Ian
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What about thisun?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270037040132&fromMakeTrack=true
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What about thisun?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270037040132&fromMakeTrack=true
Doesn't look that bad, doesn't mention a size though... I can measure how accurate it is for you for a beer :wink:
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That digi one is nice, but i dont like its price....
Apologies, i didnt realise you had copywrited it! :wink:
I like that nissan one, it looks like it will blend in with the landy dash, not quite as fly as any of teh others, but i want functionality as oposed to being opaque when the ig is off!!! Dont spose you approve.... :wink:
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That digi one is nice, but i dont like its price....
Apologies, i didnt realise you had copywrited it! :wink:
I like that nissan one, it looks like it will blend in with the landy dash, not quite as fly as any of teh others, but i want functionality as oposed to being opaque when the ig is off!!! Dont spose you approve.... :wink:
:wink:
Not a Nissan one, just a key word in the title :wink:
Racetech gauges are nice too, and not that badly priced.
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductDetail.asp?cls=MSPORT&pcode=R/PB2.5BL (probably cheaper elsewhere)
Ian
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It must be a 52mm..... Exactly how far away are you from me lol?
I might go for that nissan one i think....
VDO is the only one that doesnt do -ve. Can you get -ve pressure if you tap straight into the manifold?
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As the gauge is mechanical, all fittings, pipelines etc are supplied separately.
[Edited] is that about?
Shall i go for the EQUUS one? and see what its like? You have not approved it yet lol!!!
It had better not rattle like my TIM one atm...
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Yes these are a 52mm gauge
Thanks
52mm it is then!
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It must be a 52mm..... Exactly how far away are you from me lol?
Depends where you are :wink: .... I'm near Junc 9 of the M42.
I might go for that nissan one i think....
VDO is the only one that doesnt do -ve. Can you get -ve pressure if you tap straight into the manifold?
Nope, you will never, ever get a vacuum on a diesel (excluding some early Series 3's before we get someone being clever - but we'll exclude them for the time being)....
A quick explanation (sorry if this is really basic)
You won't get a vacuum on a diesel because you do not have a throttle blade,
On a petrol engine, the vacuum is created when you shut the throttle (i.e. lift of the accelerator pedal) as the engine is still trying to suck in air, but as the throttle blade is closed, there is only a small amount of air available. The engine is basically trying to get more air than is available so creates a vacuum in the inlet manifold.
A diesel though, does not have a throttle blade – a diesel basically runs WOT [Wide Open Throttle] all the time and all the accelerator pedal does is add or remove diesel.
So you will not see a vacuum even in the inlet manifold, as it can not physically create one. Hence why you have a vacuum pump on the side of the engine to supply a vacuum to the brake servo.
In terms of dump valves:
A dump valve is mainly used with high boost applications, the back pressure caused by lifting off the accelerator can cause the compressor within the turbo to stall. In extreme cases, the compressor can actually shatter.
This back pressure occurs because when you lift off the accelerator, the throttle blade closes... and as the turbo is still producing boost pressure this pressure builds up behind the turbo has no where to go - which as mentioned - in extreme cases can cause the compressor wheel within the turbo to go bang!!! - not good.
The dump valve is simply a release for this pressure... which also reduces turbo lag as the turbo is pressuring into a now empty intake manifold - which will also have a slight depression/vacuum acting on it.
A diesel though, does not have a throttle blade and as such will never see this build up of 'back' pressure.... (as mentioned a diesel basically runs WOT all the time and all the accelerator pedal does is add or remove diesel - in simple terms)
Which also means connecting a dump valve to a diesel is a little more complicated. Because it doesn't have a throttle blade, there is no-where to tap into to connect the dump valve - which relies on the pressure difference before and after the throttle blade to work.
The only vacuum created on a diesel is for the brake servo.... a diesel dump valve gets plumbed in to the vacuum circuit and is controlled by a solenoid valve that is activated when you lift off the accelerator pedal. However.... this set up will work ok on a 200Tdi or 300Tdi but is not really ideal for a TD5.
Whilst a dump valve can be made to work on a diesel, the only benefit would be that of noise.
Unlike a petrol, you will see no reduction in turbo lag, or turbo lifespan.... the biggest killer of turbo is not allowing them to warm up or cool correctly - i.e. thrashing the car from cold or turning it straight off after a high speed thrash. Worst still is when people rev the engine and then turn it straight off.
Ian
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You are a very wise and knowledgable man.
Cheers for taking the time to explain it all to me.
Well the Equus is ordered so will see what it is like when it turns up! It has to be an improvement on my rattley tin can of a guage i have at the moment! And will hopefully blend in a bit better, though the TIM was not to bad.
I am near junction23a of M1. i have no idea where that is in ralation to M42 as i am not from round here!!!
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You are a very wise and knowledgable man.
Cheers for taking the time to explain it all to me.
Well the Equus is ordered so will see what it is like when it turns up! It has to be an improvement on my rattley tin can of a guage i have at the moment! And will hopefully blend in a bit better, though the TIM was not to bad.
I am near junction23a of M1. i have no idea where that is in ralation to M42 as i am not from round here!!!
No probs....
I do sort of mess with engines for a living.... :wink:
Junc 23a of the M1 is the Junction with the A42 (which is end of the M42) so you are about 30 mins from me (my brother lives at Long Eaton - Junc 25 of the M1) and that takes about 40/45mins from mine.
If you ever need a hand with anything give me a shout.
Ian
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I just watched the vid and I think that sounds sweet, who said chav? no comparison.
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BTW, everything Ian said above is very true :wink:
With the possible exeption that very modern diesels now have a throttle flap, Transit I know for one. Don't ask me why unless it's clean air act rubbish.