Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Discovery => Topic started by: muddyjames on February 17, 2008, 18:25:17
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My disco is becoming more unreliable than an old skoda.
I bought a new battery (td5 big jobby) on xmas eve eve just gone. The battery turned the engine over lovely and fast. Now we have frost the battery turns the engine over but not fast enough for it to start. I was out jump starting it yesterday at 6:15am. Bet the neighbours loved me!!
Also it just dies on diesel and stalls itself or if I catch it soon enough I slam it in neutral (its an auto) and put my foot to the floor and if I am lucky the revs will pick back up, if not I either have to switch to cold veg oil or it stalls.
There are no air leaks in the diesel system to the outlet of the fuel filter, new battery, lots of diesel, and soon 1 EXTREMELY angry James!
Anyone got any good ways of destroying a car, sorry I mean sorting it?
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You have my sympathy mate,my 90 is parked outside waiting for either a buyer or a new injector pump......Is the alternator charging properly?,was it a new battery that you put on?if I were you id get the charging system tested and then deal with the rest later cos the poor running might be connected to the charging system not putting enough power down into the various electronic systems............I know its a long shot,but you never know........and I too am starting to have doubts that Land rovers are "the best 4x4 by far"......I think itll be either american or jap for me next time
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check the main lead from battery to starter - if needs be , take it off wire brush it and re-fit.. we are running the disco on 100% bio and have had no starting issues - even the past few mornings when its been well below freezing..Please say a prayer for hubby tho- as he is going to work on his suzuki bike tomorow
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You have my sympathy mate,my 90 is parked outside waiting for either a buyer or a new injector pump......Is the alternator charging properly?,was it a new battery that you put on?if I were you id get the charging system tested and then deal with the rest later cos the poor running might be connected to the charging system not putting enough power down into the various electronic systems............I know its a long shot,but you never know........and I too am starting to have doubts that Land rovers are "the best 4x4 by far"......I think itll be either american or jap for me next time
Alternator is kicking out loads of juice, about 16-17volts last time I checked, battery was brand shiney new so only about 2 months old.
Another really wierd thing is that yesterday going down the motorway at 70mph it was at 3000rpm which by the end of my journey it was down to 2500rpm. :-k Occasionaly it felt like it was being held back too and up hills it didnt want to know and had to keep flicking back and forth between diesel and veg tanks to keep some speed up. I even had a fiat brava with a trailer over take me :oops: Not good on motorways! Maybe the wind chill factor started to freeze my veg pipes so the flow to the engine wasnt as much? :-k
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check the main lead from battery to starter - if needs be , take it off wire brush it and re-fit.. we are running the disco on 100% bio and have had no starting issues - even the past few mornings when its been well below freezing..Please say a prayer for hubby tho- as he is going to work on his suzuki bike tomorow
Is this an easy wire to find and can I re fit it easily? I am starting on 100% diesel and then switching to veg oil when the engine is about to die or when the engine is hot.
sat in a lay by today for about 5 mins as my phone rang, then pulled away to leave a HUGE cloud of white smoke :oops: I was on veg oil so hope it is just something veg oil does? :-k
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.......and I too am starting to have doubts that Land rovers are "the best 4x4 by far"......I think itll be either american or jap for me next time
I am starting to think this too. Once it is running then yes, it is brilliant especially on veg oil. Better speed, mpg, 0-60, torque, brillaint, once it gets hot!
It will be a series 3 again for me next time I think as that never let me down, no matter how cold it was. It was just attrocious at towing anything though.
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Alternator is kicking out loads of juice, about 16-17volts last time I checked,
If your alternator is chucking out that much it'll be cooking your battery, It should be between 13.5-14.5 volts.
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maybe I remembered wrong. :roll: I will check tomorrow after I have been to the scrap yard
To try and get a manifold and exhaust for the reliable car! :lol:
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I feel you pain :twisted: I'm returning to the JEEP marque as soon as is possible.
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You have my sympathy mate,my 90 is parked outside waiting for either a buyer or a new injector pump......Is the alternator charging properly?,was it a new battery that you put on?if I were you id get the charging system tested and then deal with the rest later cos the poor running might be connected to the charging system not putting enough power down into the various electronic systems............I know its a long shot,but you never know........and I too am starting to have doubts that Land rovers are "the best 4x4 by far"......I think itll be either american or jap for me next time
isn't that part of the Land Rover charm :lol:
But to be honest what ever marque you have this sort of weather kills batteries pronto :doh:
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slow cranking
try running a 2nd negative with a jump lead from battery to block of engine
see if that cures it
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You have my sympathy mate,my 90 is parked outside waiting for either a buyer or a new injector pump......Is the alternator charging properly?,was it a new battery that you put on?if I were you id get the charging system tested and then deal with the rest later cos the poor running might be connected to the charging system not putting enough power down into the various electronic systems............I know its a long shot,but you never know........and I too am starting to have doubts that Land rovers are "the best 4x4 by far"......I think itll be either american or jap for me next time
isn't that part of the Land Rover charm :lol:
But to be honest what ever marque you have this sort of weather kills batteries pronto :doh:
Best to get a huge oversize battery like mine has :), BK will verify this as he has seen it (the battery I mean) - :lol: :lol: :lol:
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isn't that part of the Land Rover charm
But to be honest what ever marque you have this sort of weather kills batteries pronto
I agree. But when my cherokees battery dropped a cell it still started, only just but it did start.
TBH i've got better things to be doing than messing about with my discovery in every bit of spare time I have. I was going to put a lift kit etc on it, trouble is it's cost so much in parts and time for existing problems, i haven't had anything left.
My jeep was older had more miles and had a hard life before I got it, even so it caused me very little trouble, unlike my current discovery. Sorry to slate LRs but they're pants.
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You have my sympathy mate,my 90 is parked outside waiting for either a buyer or a new injector pump......Is the alternator charging properly?,was it a new battery that you put on?if I were you id get the charging system tested and then deal with the rest later cos the poor running might be connected to the charging system not putting enough power down into the various electronic systems............I know its a long shot,but you never know........and I too am starting to have doubts that Land rovers are "the best 4x4 by far"......I think itll be either american or jap for me next time
isn't that part of the Land Rover charm :lol:
But to be honest what ever marque you have this sort of weather kills batteries pronto :doh:
Best to get a huge oversize battery like mine has :), BK will verify this as he has seen it (the battery I mean) - :lol: :lol: :lol:
Mine has an oversized battery in to. nothing bigger will fit in the space and it still doesn't start. If it doesnt turn over at fast speeds it just flattens the battery.
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everyone knows that land rover parts are far inferior to jap stuff etc. Jap and yank stuff is far more resistant to poor servicing and thrashing than land rover kit. everythings made of cheese, but i wouldnt have anything else. (maybe an old nissan patrol to go to work in)
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it depends where you buy, alternators are a big problem with pajero;s and shoguns, i know people who are on there 10th alternator, brought through a relatively well known jap supplier, probably more down to poor original design or positioning of the unit.
I had to replace twin batteries on mine just after xmas which wasn't pleasant, :twisted: and they have only been on a couple of years :roll:
I think if you buy from OME source then you shouldn't go far wrong, its very easy to buy very cheap service parts and moan when it all fails, hence giving the perception that its the motor at fault.
I am not taking LR or Jap Sides here just speaking from experience ;)
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isn't that part of the Land Rover charm
But to be honest what ever marque you have this sort of weather kills batteries pronto
I agree. But when my cherokees battery dropped a cell it still started, only just but it did start.
TBH i've got better things to be doing than messing about with my discovery in every bit of spare time I have. I was going to put a lift kit etc on it, trouble is it's cost so much in parts and time for existing problems, i haven't had anything left.
My jeep was older had more miles and had a hard life before I got it, even so it caused me very little trouble, unlike my current discovery. Sorry to slate LRs but they're pants.
HOORAY!!!!!! im glad someone agrees with me....Ive been driving since I was 17 im now 45 and ive had loads of cars none of them new ones but ive had 2 landrovers in that time and MY GOD what do they build them out of?ive never had cars SO unreliable in my life,if you look through the forums on the landy sections its full of people with problems with their landrovers,if you go on the mitsi or jeep sections it just mostly people talking about general stuff thats nowt to do with their car problems,ill never touch another landy again.....and why is it defenders hold there money so well?I cant understand this!!!!£6-7k for summat thats 12 years old and done 100000 miles ??????whats all that about...I can hear the stampede now of landy owners that are gonna tell me im wrong............
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my comp 90 been struggling to start lately
and thats with twin optima's powering it into life
it was a poor negative from chassis to engine
a new earth strap and a clean of the main negative has seen it firing up instant again
worth a try
dan
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I guess putting a jump lead from engine block to battery will find this out?
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yup :D
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I tried this before but only place to clamp it onto was the glow plug. Guessing that isnt a clever idea really? where is a good place to clamp to?
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and why is it defenders hold there money so well?I cant understand this!!!!£6-7k for summat thats 12 years old and done 100000 miles ??????whats all that about...I can hear the stampede now of landy owners that are gonna tell me im wrong............
That has always puzzled me. Out here, even shed-like 90s go for about twice the price of a good Disco.
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on the running side not sure on the veg oil system but is your lift pump o.k, sounds like fuell starvation your getting iff you say its not picking up air, that rules out the pipe on the sender that rots, could check the sedementer iff thats o.k, deisel filter iff not been changed for a while. let us know how you get on. alan.....
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try the thermostat housing or oil sender underneath thats a good earth but watch u dont burn the jump lead wire on the zorst........................and yes its crazy on the price of used defenders,I can understand it on a ferrari or a porsche...but a defender?????????????? :-k :-k
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new diesel line runs from new tank, direct to inline filter, through valve and pre heater for oil (but obviously cold as starting engine) then into engine so it by passes the lift pump and sedimentor etc.
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silly question but have you checked the glowplugs,it seems as that youre only getting this problem in cold weather
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I am getting volts to each one. Not taken each one out and held it yet. I'm notbrave enough. I replaced them 3 years ago. how long do they last?
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Dunno mate but there only a tenner for 4 on ebay from island 4x4 so it might be worth it save messin about,i put some on mine when the cold weather started and it made a world of difference,but its up to you
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I might get some then. It would ruel out one thing I guess! Also going to buy some bubble wrap me thinks to go round the battery and keep it warmer.
It just seems strange that the battery doesnt turn over the engine as fast as it used to do. Most of my driving is at weekends for hundreds of miles in it. So it isnt like I do tidly journeys.
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I might get some then. It would ruel out one thing I guess! Also going to buy some bubble wrap me thinks to go round the battery and keep it warmer.
It just seems strange that the battery doesnt turn over the engine as fast as it used to do. Most of my driving is at weekends for hundreds of miles in it. So it isnt like I do tidly journeys.
id think its a poor earth, but batterys dont like the cold, its strange though :-.
200's dont need glow plugs, even in the coldest of weather all our 200s start with no heat, i give up on the 300 in cold weather :roll:
to test the glow plugs, no need to remove them
get a piece of decent size cable that is long enough to reach the furthest plug ( no 4 cyl ) to the + on the batt
fix one end of the cable to the battery then with the other end brush it on each glow plug, if it arcs then that plug is fine
oh, you need to remove the hop rail ist though as it will give you a false sense as there all working
hope that helps
dan
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startb with the easiest have a look at the fuel shut off switch ( on the injector pump singel wire ) mine gave me the same fault and it was that terminal breaking down 10p terminal all done now
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Try removing starter motor , strip it down and wash it out with petrol,dry it well a spot of oil and job done.should cure slow starting.
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You're not the only one having battery issues. I bought a big Varta one for the LSE and if I leave it a week it's dead, completley dead, won't even work the central locking.
I reckon it's the cold.
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the hop rail??? :huh:
Well, I went out this morning and after alot of turning over and pumping the loud pedal it did fire into life, however, it did it's narrow boat impression of running at 250 rpm and wanting to stall. I couldn't be bothered with putting it in low box until the engine was warm (only way to not let it stall) so I took the other car (yes the one with exhaust issues :twisted:)
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ok here goes.
alternator at the battery is giving out 14.04 volts.
I think though I may have a ureeka moment looming. I have looked today and there is an air bubble in the inline fuel filter. I took off 1 end, held it up and gentle squeezed my priming bulb and the bubble wouldnt come out. hey ho. any ideas?
The priming bulb when running sucks in and is a fairly tight spot for fuel to flow through. Should this do this?
At this point I thought what have I got to loose. lets blow the line from the back of the bulb to the tank through. So stuck the back end into a clear bottle and put my air compressor (ciggy lighter jobby) on the hose and turned it on. all seemed ok coming out. Put hose back onto tank and at this point it took 6.5psi to start blowing the fuel back then it went back to 0psi. So I think there may have been a small bit of crud stuck in the tank pipe. It does narrow alot where the pipe comes out of the tank and into my fuel line. Once I did this it ticked over alot better and on a test run it showed no signs of stalling or struggling to pull away. fingers crossed then!
BUT there is alot of diesel around the bit that comes out the tank . Dont know why. Maybe I didnt have the air vent open enough on the cap and made a vacuum? Dunno. I have tightened the jubilee clip up alot tighter now though incase it was being forced backwards every time I turned the engine off.
does diesel make a boot flor rust faster?
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diesel is essentially oil, and should protect, however if you`ve seen the paint around most filler caps, it can get issues with paint.... which in time leave bare metal... not to mention the whole hot exhaust/diesel soaked underside of vehicle issue..... :-.
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i have wiped as much off as possible from around the engine bay. I think I may need to pull my rubber mat out from on top of the carpet and give it a hosing down and then a drying out session. I bet I end up doing that next year and finding rust!!!
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It shouldnt rust mate but it will stink for a bit,i hope youve sussed it mate
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Looking at the priming bulb revelation I reckon you've cracked it, but thats the very reason why I'm renewing my sedimenter and not just junking it.
As for the cold thing - mines always started fine and charges well but its needed glow-plugs last couple of days which is unusual for it as I never usually bother so I reckon its fuel filter time after I've done the sedimenter......
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Looking at the priming bulb revelation I reckon you've cracked it, but thats the very reason why I'm renewing my sedimenter and not just junking it.
Well, after my back blowing yesterday the disco again started this morning in the cold and sounded like a narrow boat engine at 250rpm, so went in other car again!
This afternoon I have removed the priming bulb and then turned it over. It turned over much faster as well and poof, into life, bit of spluttering as the air in the pipes went through but then, then, we had normal idle speed (600rpm ish). Stopped the engine, re started and it does seem to idle at a slow speed but tap the loud pedal and it idles properly then. Went for a test drive and all seemed ok. So tomorrow I think will be D day for it. If not, then I will empty veg tank, put diesel in and try the engine like that. Go back to basics and start from scratch and eliminate other things.
Oh, and I know how to make confetty now as well! :roll: I left my big roll of paper on the fan didnt I and forgot to remove it, so the fan span round and shredded it for me. :doh:
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Mmmm, so much for me saying "get an oversized battery", mine has only just started tonight after being stood since Friday :shock: :shock: :shock:
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If the priming bulb is between the tank and lift pump then it getting crushed is an indication of a good lift pump but a restriction somewhere as its collapsing the supply pipe at the weakest point (the bulb). It may just be that the bulb is not man enough to cope or it may be that the veg oil is heavier than diesel and the pump is struggling to lift it out of the tank?
Not much good on veg oil - I only use it for chips
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ah, nooo
the priming bulb is in the new diesel line. It is diesel tank in boot-priming bulb-filter-valve-injectors. As I believe it to be anyway. Only the veg oil runs through the lift pump.
So the bulb becoming crushed is a good sign of the engine having enough guts to pull the diesel through under it's own power and not needing a pump? Am I right?
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Well, yes and no.......
The bulb collapsing is a sure sign that the FIP is indeed pulling fuel all by itself, but as the bulb collapses it causes a restriction which the FIP will most likely not be able to overcome on its own - the lift pump may well do, but the bulb collapsing is a symptom also of a restriction further up-stream as if pressure was equal on both sides of it there'd be very little collapsing evident. so I think you have a partial blockage between the bulb and the tank, this results in a depression in the fuel line which manifests itself in crushing at the weakest spot - the bulb. The up-shot of the whole thing is reduced fuel delivery and poor running/starting as a result.
OR... it could mean that there is air in the pipe downstream from the bulb as air is less dense than fuel, and some scientist may well correct me here, but, this will also allow the pressure to drop in the pipe before the bulb as the volume of fluid in the pipe will drop as air enters it through the leak giving the same overall result as a restriction....
The fact that there is fuel around some of the joints points towards a leak - if fuel is getting out of a pipe subject to a depression, you can bet your arse air is getting sucked in..............
Right, I need to lie down now..............
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right then.
My fact finding so far today. Started disco this morning, gave a few pumps on the loud pedal and it fired up, it ran at more of a sensible tick over speed but still not 100% right. This is the best bit though. It drove and didn't stall!!! Woo hoo. :dance: Started it after work today and again it was fine.
I do have air in the clear inline filter. I cant shift it though. When I rev the engine there are no air bubbles appearing in the filter like there was a few weeks ago. cuning trick I got shown a few weeks. :doh:
So blowing the lines back to the tank I think will have cleared any blockage and as the engine is running with no aid of any lift pumps etc I think it will idle slightly slower anyway, but it isnt so low it sounds like a boat chugging along now!
So all in all, progress has been made!
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The quote above suggests you have bypassed the lift pump altogether on the diesel side??? is that correct as understood? , have you fitted an additional pump on the diesel supply or can you elaborate on how the fuel is pumped from each tank??
that is indeed correct. My new diesel tank which is in the boot where a dicci seat used to be. As far as I understand it (Dr Ed please help here) the diesel runs from tank direct to change over valve then into the injectors.
The veg oil runs as it always used to do when on diesel except it has a change over valve to flow through and the heat exchanger.
How do I do a compression test? Sounds mega scary to me.
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To be honest I wouldnt run without the lift pump, the fact that it runs fine with veg through the lift pump suggests this, You may have alleviated some of the strain on the distribution pump by having the tank in the boot (ie higher than normal so slighly gravity assisted) but Landrover did fit it for a reason and it does alleviate the stress on the dist pump.
the bulb will be seen to collapse as it is weaker than the weight of fuel the pump is attempting to pull along the line, ie all the fuel in the line from the bulb to the tank.
One option would be to 'T' the oil line into the diesel line before the lift pump, you would need to fit the heater in the oil line before the lift pump as obviously you DONT!! want to be heating the diesel under normal conditions if you have a veryeffective heater. VOW go into details on there site with their range of inline glowplug powered heater elements.
Have you tried starting with a couple of the injectors cracked to allow any air to escape, then tighten em once running... if this works it would certainly point to a small amount of air getting in.
Cheers Steve
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Where are you located, plenty of people have diesel compression testers and its an easy job.
Cheers Steve
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attatched is my fuel diagram Dr Ed made me.
MY diesel does go through the heater but only for the last part of my journey. About 90seconds ish before the end.
What is a dist pump? I was thinking about getting a small leccy fuel pump off of a 200tdi as I believe they have a pump in thier diesel tanks?
How much do I undo the injectors? 1 turn of a spanner (360 degrees) or less? Injectors are the things ontop of the engine on the left as you look from the front by the sound proofing arent they?
Oh and I am near Banbury/ daventry.
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attatched is my fuel diagram Dr Ed made me.
MY diesel does go through the heater but only for the last part of my journey. About 90seconds ish before the end.
What is a dist pump? I was thinking about getting a small leccy fuel pump off of a 200tdi as I believe they have a pump in thier diesel tanks?
How much do I undo the injectors? 1 turn of a spanner (360 degrees) or less? Injectors are the things ontop of the engine on the left as you look from the front by the sound proofing arent they?
Oh and I am near Banbury/ daventry.
Direct from VOWS site ( http://www.vow2.co.uk )
E and F and DW units cannot be fully turned off so are unsuitable if you intend to use 100% diesel at any point. Heated diesel looses its lubrication and must have some veg oil mixed with it. 10% should be enough.
Dist pump (sorry) ... fuel distribution pump often also referred to as the injector pump
as for the injectors.. its the nut securing the fuel line on the top that needs to be cracked not the whole injector loosened, a smalll turn to loosen the bolt is all that is needed to allow fuel / air to seep out, once running just tweak it back up, same procedure as if you were bleeding injectors on many non-self bleeding diesels
Cheers Steve
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Direct from VOWS site ( http://www.vow2.co.uk )
E and F and DW units cannot be fully turned off so are unsuitable if you intend to use 100% diesel at any point. Heated diesel looses its lubrication and must have some veg oil mixed with it. 10% should be enough.
I am only running my diesel through a hot exchanger for about 1-2 minutes before turn off. Will this really make a massive difference to it siezing up or not?
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Prob not gonna cause any problems then, but worth remembering if you ever run out of veg and have to run on diesel for an extended period....:)
Cheers Steve
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yes, I have thought about that predicament I might get myself into! I am thinking about getting a valve and put it into the hot water pipes to the heat exchanger so if I do have to fill with diesel for a ling time I can turn the water off to the exchanger. Can I get a valve to fit the water pipes though? they are the same diameter as the heater matrix pipes. 1/2" I think?