Mud-club
Vehicle & Technical => Discovery => Topic started by: muddyjames on October 30, 2005, 15:30:23
-
I am looking at buying a 300tdi disco with 10 months mot etc etc. m reg 172k miles and the guy has said it has been confirmed by a garage (taking with a pinch of salt as I have learnt not to trust anyone when buying a car) that it needs a new belt tensioner as the bearings are going. He had the cam belt replaced last year. How much of a job is it to do? If it is a garage job how many hours labour am i looking at and how much would the part be and if the part broke what would be the consequences???
Here is the disco I am thinking of. Right price for me and only a few miles down the road. Outside condition is good but havent seen inside yet or heard engine. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4585018851&indexURL=3&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting
This will determin whether I buy the disco or not.
Cheers
James
-
thing is the 300 tdi has 2 belt tensioners,
one on the main fan belt on the front of the engine & one that the timing belt runs on,
if the main tensioner fails it knackers the belt & "could" stall the engine so when u fone the aa they tell you the engines seized :evil:
that tentioner is about £60+V & takes approx 20 min to fit,
the timing belt tentioner "shouldve" been replaced when the timing belt was done,to change it would mean preferable a set of tensioner & pulley (£20 each) & about 4 hours labour
-
Sometimes there is a "squeel" from the main drive belt that sound like either the PAS pump, alt' bearings or the tensioner bearings when it's actually just a pollished belt. A small drop of WD40 on the smooth side of the belt will tell you if it's this. If it is then the noise will stop, returning when the WD40 has gone, just change the belt. ;)
The tentioner has one stud holding it to the front of the engine block and is normally easy to change.
Remove belt from tensioner, remove nut from stud, slide tensioner off stud, put new tensioner in place using location lug, tighten nut and replace belt. Ut's really that easy.
If you get a new one, keep the olod one as a spare because you can get the bearing changed and that's much cheaper than a new tensioner. :D
-
thanks for that info. I am now slightly more baffled as there are 2 tensioners!
So when I go to have a look at the disco I need to take some wd40 with me and squirt some on the cam belt. If I cant work out which is the cam belt I could just give a little squirt on all of them?
If the engine does stall and the aa say siezed has it siezed or does it just need a new tensioner or is that the cam belt gone and major problems?
What do you think the chances are of a friendly garage coming and looking at the disco with me? Not much chance I bet.
Oh I dont know what to do now. I will go and have a listen anyway. Thanks alot guys for the help. Really useful. I know more now than i did a few mins agao anyway. Any more help will be welcome. If any one wants to look at it with me in the Basingstoke / Reading area your more than welcome too!!!
-
James, just to make it a little clearer:
I was talking about the drive belt.
This runs the off the crankshaft pully and powers the fan, PAS pump, water pump and alternator. The other pully is for the injector pump.
Unless the Disco has air-con then this will be the only belt you will see.
The cam belt is inside the front cover on the engine and you won't be able to see this. As Mikee said, if the timing belt has been replaced then this tensioner should have been done at the same time.
The Drive belt tensioner is the more common problem with the 300 TDi, either the bearing goes or the tensioner gets out of alinement and causes the belt to squeel.
Another common problem with this engine is that the rev counter sometimes either jumps all over the place or drops to zero. This is nothing worry about as it's normally just a loose connection on the back of the alternator. But don't tell the sell as it may be a good bargining point!! :wink:
-
ok cool. this one does have air con that needs re gassing (barganing point!!!) but if i do get it wrong and the tensioner does go then it is nothing major to worry about?
-
just been to my local garage and they have said it is about £200 inc vat for labour to change either the cam belt or the other belt tensioner. This does seem on the pricey side for what you have described as a relatively easy job to do. I may get another quote. If it is the cam belt tensioner then i will leave well alone I think.
-
I have just phoned up Keith gott in Hampshire where the guy has taken the Disco to be serviced etc in the past and they said that when they change the cam belt they change the belt tensioner at the same time so it is more likely to be the external belt tensioner which is £80 fitted. Not too bad. Any thoughts please.
-
If you are interested in buying it how about rather than getting him to reduce the price because of the work, offering him a higher price on the condition he gets the work done to your satisfaction?
Or have I missed the point and you have bought it now?
-
I havent bought it yet. I am going to hear it running and do a test drive today at 3pm ish.
The catch is that I was hoping about 5 weeks ago to have a disco by this thursday to take to my voluntary work.
This one came up and looks good etc except for the tensioner. I did think about asking him to get the work done but it wont be done by Thursday. Depending on how bad the bearing sound is if I did buy it I would take it so Wales with me this Thursday (100 miles ish away. Maybe a bit less)
-
i'm about today if you want someone to look at it with you :D
Steve
-
cheers Steve. Thats very kind of you. This disco is in Chineham near Basingstoke. what time would you be able to come round and look with me. I will pay your fuel costs of course. That would be fantastic. :D
-
Thank you steve for coming with me today and the towbar.
Just to let you know everyone that I bought it. Steve did a great job of haggling and I got it for £2300.
Fantastic. I am OVER the MOON. Cant remember last time I was so happy.
Cant wait to play in it now at the weekend.
Thanks for everyones help.
-
the £80 fitted for the fan belt tentioner is a fair price,
having read your first post at that mileage & also being serviced by keith gott i rekon it will have the timing belt tentioner changed at the last belt changed,
if the tentioner seizes up taker a knife & cut it to get you home,having looked at the ad i also noticed its an auto,have you test driven it yet?? might be abit slow for your liking
-
yup test drove it today. slower than petrols but sped isnt everything.
phoned up keith gott and they said they change the tensioner as standard when they do cam belts.
how do you mean slow for my liking!!! I am not a boy racer. only at work!!!
-
i drive alot of landrovers & diesel autos dont rank high in my favourites (unless its tweaked :twisted: ) although saying that they are good ofroad,ask ash :wink: hes got a 300tdi auto in his hybrid
-
steve said i can take something off to do with emmissions and blank it up and it creates a few extra horse power. Sounds easy ish to do.
I dont know how easy it is to do but if i do get mega [!Expletive Deleted!] off with the auto i am sure there must be a way of converting it to a manual but i will try the auto first. never properly driven an auto before. well I mean owned one before.
-
Well done James, glad you got what you wanted. :D
So what was the problem with the tensioner?
Do tell. :wink:
-
That's the egr system - it recircs exhaust gas - hense Exhaust Gas Recirculation! It supposedly helps the emissions and also lowers some of the cylinder temps. Basically you make a plateup to blank the system off, you can remove the feeds as well, dont forget to tell the ins co though!
I wouldn't worry about changing it though I know how slow you like to drive! ;)
Matt
-
did you know that the way a diesel auto is valved it wont go into lock up until about 62mph so when you donder along the road at 55 its actually in 3rd thus using more fuel :wink:
-
steve said i can take something off to do with emmissions and blank it up and it creates a few extra horse power. Sounds easy ish to do.
I think Steve is talking about the Exhaust Gas Return (EGR) valve on the exhaust manifold. Yes you can blank it off and there are threads about it in here, just do a search for EGR.
There is also an easy tweek you can make to the injector pump that will make it easier to drive. Details are listed on this site (http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/more_power/Power_ve.htm) and it's the alteration to the diaphram you're looking for. Best not try it in stages and keep an eye out for black smoke from the exhaust on hard acceleration. This is only unburnt fuel and if you see it then just back off the diaphram a little.
We did it to Gords Disco at the Belgium National this year and it took about 5 mins. He said he noticed quite a difference on the way home. :wink:
Anything you're not sure about, just ask. We can normally supply the answers, sometime with photos as well. :D
-
I was just about to say I know a decent lucas engineer but that wont help you in a 300!
M
-
I was just about to say I know a decent lucas engineer but that wont help you in a 300!
M
how not??
-
if you want a 300TDi, I have one for sale, and it has a new cam belt fitted at 73kish and new fan belts fitted in the last 5k. 9 month MOT and 3 month Tax, almost full service history and only just over 100k on the clock
-
I hate to put a downer on your sales pitch Robbie, but I think you missed this post on page one! :D :wink:
Just to let you know everyone that I bought it. Steve did a great job of haggling and I got it for £2300.
Fantastic. I am OVER the MOON. Cant remember last time I was so happy.
Cant wait to play in it now at the weekend.
Thanks for everyones help.
-
I was just about to say I know a decent lucas engineer but that wont help you in a 300!
M
how not??
I didn't think 300 tdis had lucas injection pumps... am i totally wrong again?
Matt
-
i dunno,I should know but it was to late last night & too early this morning
-
Well done James, glad you got what you wanted. :D
So what was the problem with the tensioner?
Do tell. :wink:
It is just the bearing gone on the alternator tensioner. Nothing too serious. Got a quote for £80 to change it and that inc parts and labour and vat I think.
-
did you know that the way a diesel auto is valved it wont go into lock up until about 62mph so when you donder along the road at 55 its actually in 3rd thus using more fuel :wink:
when you say into lock I am guessing you mean 4th? When I test drove it yesterday and really put my foor down it just got into 4th at about 55mph then I had to break for a roundabout! I will just have to remeber to go at about 63mph on motorways then! :lol:
-
It is just the bearing gone on the alternator tensioner. Nothing too serious. Got a quote for £80 to change it and that inc parts and labour and vat I think.
£80 isn't bad.
Just so you know, a new tentioner is about £43 +vat and a new drive belt is about £7 +vat (carefull though cos if the belt has Land Rover written on it then that puts the price up to about £23! :shock: )
-
ooh thanks for that.
I have now picked it up and it is mine :D
I do see what you say about not very nippy but I am happy with that and I think I counted right and it dropped into 4th gear at bang on 50mph. It was doing about 1500rpm. Does that sound right for 4th gear. I am fairly sure it was 1500 not 2500.
I am mega shocked on the size of the diesel tank though. from having the light on to it filled up was £80. OMG But as I never allow a car to go into the reseve fule and the light come on it should only cost about £70 next time I hope. How many miles should I expect from my £80 worth of diesel?
-
james it was the EGR i was talking about
when are you going to put the pictures up?
Steve
-
ooh thanks for that.
I have now picked it up and it is mine :D
I do see what you say about not very nippy but I am happy with that and I think I counted right and it dropped into 4th gear at bang on 50mph. It was doing about 1500rpm. Does that sound right for 4th gear. I am fairly sure it was 1500 not 2500.
I am mega shocked on the size of the diesel tank though. from having the light on to it filled up was £80. OMG But as I never allow a car to go into the reseve fule and the light come on it should only cost about £70 next time I hope. How many miles should I expect from my £80 worth of diesel?
If it's a regular auto box the lock they are talking about is when the viscous unit is effectively cut out of the equation.
Think of an auto box's "clutch" as two big fans which sit in viscous oil, one fan is driven by the engine the other is connected to the gearbox in the normal way, the engine fan spins the fluid which spins the other fan. When it's on tick over you can easily hold the second fan still in the fluid by using the brake or park setting. This method always has losses - somewhere between 10 and 20 % I think is the norm so if a regualr disco does 30 mpg then an auto would only do 24mpg - this is the main reason qhy old autos had rubbish fuel economy (not so much to do with them having less gears as they are 'taller' as no clutch to burn out when slipping).. Anway to get around this you have something called lock up where something hard joins the two fans together and locks them so no loses are caused in the fluid, this is what I believe the others were refering to. To test drive along slowly accelerating from about 50mph, you should when you get to the speed mentioned see the revs drop off a little then increase.
How many miles will you get from £80 well assuming 30 mpg you should be able to work it out, 1 mpg = .21997 miles per litre .: 30 mpg = 6.59907 miles per litre,
£80 of diesel @ 98ppl = 82 litres
6.59907*82 = 533 miles or another way is to say it costs
15 pence per mile
Mine uses 20p per mile or about 23 mpg but then my throttle only has two positions generally!
-
[
To test drive along slowly accelerating from about 50mph, you should when you get to the speed mentioned see the revs drop off a little then increase.
How many miles will you get from £80 well assuming 30 mpg you should be able to work it out, 1 mpg = .21997 miles per litre .: 30 mpg = 6.59907 miles per litre,
£80 of diesel @ 98ppl = 82 litres
6.59907*82 = 533 miles or another way is to say it costs
15 pence per mile
Mine uses 20p per mile or about 23 mpg but then my throttle only has two positions generally!
I shall try it out and see if the revs do drop off then go back up slightly. The manual says doing 56mph on a motorway I should get 41mph with an auto. I thnk that would be down hill with the wind behind in a lorries slip stream!!!
If I get over 500 miles from the tank I will be a happy bunny. That will be ALOT better than the 3.9 v8 auto range rover I had!!! Yes before you say it Matt. You were right! :P
-
the revs don't drop then increase slightly, they drop slightly then continue to increase as speed does.
At 56 mph you get 41 mph - how does that work???? ;-)
Matt
-
i meant at 56mph i should get 41mpg. 1 letter wrong!!!
-
Hello. I had the belt tensioner changed last Friday before I went to Wales for the weekend.
The disco had a very small struggle to start on Thursday morning but nothing major. Just thought it was a pre heater gone. Drove to Wales. Max speed was 70mph and that was reduced to 60mph up hills. You did say it was sluggish.
Woke up at mates house on Friday, went out side to go out for the day, took ALOT of effort to start up then when it did it wouldn't rev over 1200rpm but did chuck out a massive plume of white smoke out the exhuast for 5 minutes but still no more revs until it had warmed up. Going up and down the welsh hills (not very steep ones) max speed was 60 and 50 up hills. Went into a mine museum, came out and again started it up white smoke for 5 minutes (and I do mean an embarrasing amount. Enough to hide the car in and I couldn't see out). drove back to mates house. went to the voluntary work accomodation just outside Cardiff. Max speed I struggled to get too in on any road around Cardiff was 30mph with white smoke the whole time and not many revs.
Mate looked at it in the dark with a torch. Belt I had put on the previous day by Keith Gott that had done 200 miles had near enough been stripped and the pully that goes out of the engine was wobbling. So it looks like the key way is bust and the pully for the alternator and the cam belt are both wobbling and loose so I had aht RAC take it away on a low loader today to a garage in Banbury. He is very highly praised for his work by 3 of my mates who take their Landies there and we shall see what happens. Will keep you posted.
-
going by what you hsve said about the smoke mine did that on tues & it was the headgasket that was away & it was blowing the water out the expansion bottle (mines is a 200tdi BTW)
did mine in 5 hours ish :wink:
-
James
Good work on getting the motor.
Looks nice.
I hope you get the problems ironed out soon.
Whats your plans with it?
Mad off roader?
Keep us posted.
ps if you ever want to sell the front light guards, let me know :wink:
-
I plan on making it not a mad off roader but a winch / and winch bumper, rock sliders, 2" lift and a snorkle
i may be selling my body soon to pay for the repairs.
-
James
Check your PM box
:D
-
have done
-
Hello. I had the belt tensioner changed last Friday before I went to Wales for the weekend.
The disco had a very small struggle to start on Thursday morning but nothing major. Just thought it was a pre heater gone. .
to be honest it's not likely a glow plug or even the whole lot - it's really not cold enough to need them - I don't even bother waiting during the cold weather, I've two batteries though so it helps cold cranking.
Drove to Wales. Max speed was 70mph and that was reduced to 60mph up hills. You did say it was sluggish.
depends what kind of hills really - you should realistically be able to cruise at 70mph on anything the M4 has. I had some in wales where 20 mph was hard enough!
Woke up at mates house on Friday, went out side to go out for the day, took ALOT of effort to start up then when it did it wouldn't rev over 1200rpm but did chuck out a massive plume of white smoke out the exhuast for 5 minutes but still no more revs until it had warmed up.
I noticed it struggling to rev when I came over the other night - very hesitant beyond 1200 rpm, foot flat to the floor it kind of hickups.
Was it white or blue smoke?
Check the oil and water levels cold and hot, if as RedlineMike says it could be the headgasket that's gone somewhere. If engine gasses are getting into the coolant then you may see the water level rise a lot and have gas bubbles in it you won't tend to see white smoke this way round though. If water is getting into the cylinders then the water level will drop slowly over a few days as it is being used up in the engine. When the engine is heating up it is expanding and sealing the gap. Best case you may just be able to re-torque the head bolts (I'm not sure if they use stretch bolts or not tho). Middle case scenario it's head off new gasket and back together, probably about a days work for the home mechanic. Worst case scenario is that the head has warped or cracked in which case it will need milling by a few thou, that would cost probably about £30 to skim but you obviously need to take the engine apart (I've been looking for an excuse to buy some engine stripping tool :-).
If it is blue smoke at tickover then it could be the turbo oil seals (I think the 300 still uses an oil cooled unit). Turbos aren't too expensive to replace despite people often sucking their teeth!
If it's blue smoke at cold then it's could well be the piston rings or valve seals as these expand when they get hot.
Belt I had put on the previous day by Keith Gott that had done 200 miles had near enough been stripped and the pully that goes out of the engine was wobbling. So it looks like the key way is bust and the pully for the alternator and the cam belt are both wobbling and loose so I had aht RAC take it away on a low loader today to a garage in Banbury. He is very highly praised for his work by 3 of my mates who take their Landies there and we shall see what happens. Will keep you posted.
Now that is interesting. Although I'm not sure what the pully that goes out of the engine is -(????). If the belt has been severely warn then it could be one of the anscilliaries that have gone.. If it is water seeping into the combustion chambers, then it could have run dry or very low, the water pump could have ceised which will have caused the belt problems.
What's the garage in banbury you got it taken too? Have they given you an estimate before starting work etc etc?
Matt
-
thing is when my HG went it didnt smoke much when cold but when it was warm it was billowing out the back at tickover & when running it would blow the cap of the expansion bottle if you dared unscrew it
the bolts are fixed length & reusable & also doesnt take long to do,as its a 300 takes a bit less but can have the head of in just under/over an hour from starting,takes a bit longer to put back together though (tapets take freckin ages to set)
-
I have been told by mates at the weekend who are very land rovery minded that it is probably the key way into the engine hence why the pully was wobbling hence the shreaded belt so the cam belt is probably nearly shreaded as well and if it is wobbling the belt wont be going round the right speed so the timing maybe very slightly out. Thats their thought any way.
I will find out later on today the extend of the damage.
THe garage in Banbury is a one man band guy who used to work on john deer machinery and gave that up quiet a few years back and now specialises in Landies. He charges £25 per hour. No quotes as no idea on exactly what is wrong.
-
I have been told by mates at the weekend who are very land rovery minded that it is probably the key way into the engine hence why the pully was wobbling hence the shreaded belt so the cam belt is probably nearly shreaded as well and if it is wobbling the belt wont be going round the right speed so the timing maybe very slightly out. Thats their thought any way.
I will find out later on today the extend of the damage.
THe garage in Banbury is a one man band guy who used to work on john deer machinery and gave that up quiet a few years back and now specialises in Landies. He charges £25 per hour. No quotes as no idea on exactly what is wrong.
How does timing out give white smoke? Surely it would be black smoke if timing was out.
Matt
-
our engines chuck out white smoke when the fuel pump timing's out
white smoke is unburnt fuel or steam. there were no bubbles in the header tanks and the pressure in the water system was ok when i looked at it.
i reckon its down to fueling rather than anything to serious we have it at work quite often when an injector or 2 go down on an engine they throw out plumes of white smoke and wont rev.
silly question james you did put diesel in it not petrol? as this would cause lots of smoke
Steve
-
I definately put diesel in it!!!
Garage said it is definately the pully off the cam chaft (or what ever shaft comes out to turn the cam belt pully) and the nut that should be at extreme torque worked its way loose so the timing is slightly out. will find out how much damage was done soon.
-
if the bolt has become slack it CANT change the timing,all that can happen is it shreds the belt quite quickly as it runs off line,the only pulley that can change the timing is the one on the front of the injection pump
-
so changing the pully may not solve the white smoke?
I will call the mechanic tomorrow and ask him whats what. it sounds like it could go into thousands at this rate.
I have been well and truly conned
-
been thinking & swithering over this,if the key way is gubbed it will allow the pulley to move side to side on the crank,this "could" change the timing but shouldnt cause white smoke,if the keyway is ***** it would need a new crank or a new engine,i wish i could diagnose it for you but its hard going by a description
-
the mechanic did say it could be a new crank but hehas a 300tdi engine in his yard that has had the top half cracked or something and the crank is perfect and he will sell that 1 to me for half price (£200).
I am sure I will find out sooner or later what is wrong and will fall over backwards with the bill!
-
if he thinks £200 is 1/2 price id buy it NOW
-
been thinking & swithering over this,if the key way is gubbed it will allow the pulley to move side to side on the crank,this "could" change the timing but shouldnt cause white smoke,if the keyway is ***** it would need a new crank or a new engine,i wish i could diagnose it for you but its hard going by a description
The thing that get's me is the smoke goes once it has warmed up - certainly timing if massviely out can give white smoke (lack of fuel ) so i've read up, but even a tooth out on the timing won't make it that bad I remember a certain Russ Brown-Lee telling me it'll just drive really badly.
Oh I do hope it's fixable for your sake James and not too much money.
Matt