Red diesel

[tenpolequint]

Would it be legal to run a purely off road vehicle on red diesel and would the red diesel be ok for the engines to run with this or would they kick up a fuss. I know red diesel has a dye added to it but is it a lower quality diesel or is there no such thing. i.e. diesel is diesel.

[Manicminer]

As long as you don't use your vehicle on the public roads etc , ie private land , then you will have no problems legally or motor wise. Red diesel is diesel without the road tax duty - £1.00 a gallon.

[hobbit]

Yes as above, your motor would run just as well on red, no difference apart from the colour, be prepared for a visit from somebody after you start buying it, a lot of sellers take vehicle registrations and pass them onto the authorities, to check on whether you are using it in road vehicles

[muddyweb]

This will probably sound a bit 'anorak' even for me, but it will smell different when the engine runs too.

The red diesel compared to DERV will be a little different in terms of performance too, since they haven't spent quite so much time taking things out of it and putting additives in to make it "environmentally friendly".

[drum]

In an old engine, just run cooking oil, 15p per litre at netto, and smells like a chippy everywhere you go  :D


Not a serious suggestion, by the way.

[Guy90]

In an old engine, just run cooking oil, 15p per litre at netto, and smells like a chippy everywhere you go  :D


Not a serious suggestion, by the way.

26p duty a litre :lol:  :lol:


Guy

[Guy90]

Yes as above, your motor would run just as well on red, no difference apart from the colour, be prepared for a visit from somebody after you start buying it, a lot of sellers take vehicle registrations and pass them onto the authorities, to check on whether you are using it in road vehicles

And Customs officers everywhere as well :lol:  :lol:  :twisted: . By the way its not always red. It is not primarily indentified by the dye.

I assume you will not be road taxing it. And don't forget step on a green lane and you've broken the law. It is an absolute offence under the Hydro Carbon Oils Act 1973 and Customs & Excise Management Act 1979 so make sure you check before you start. The merest suspsion it has been on the road and you loose the vehicle.
Guy

[muddyweb]

Unless it is taxed as an agricutural vehicle of course, but then you have restrictions as to how far you can travel on the roads from the farm ;-)

[tenpolequint]

Is this what a HMCE inspector looks like.


I smell Red Diesel

[Guy90]

The link is dead :( .

Guy

[tenpolequint]

Give me a chance to sort it. How about that. Phew!

[Bob696]

The merest suspsion it has been on the road and you loose the vehicle.

Nothing new from HMC&E then. I always thought there was something called 'burden of proof' or something.

[Guy90]

The merest suspsion it has been on the road and you loose the vehicle.

Nothing new from HMC&E then. I always thought there was something called 'burden of proof' or something.

The legislation that covers our activities differs from that of other agencies (such as the Police) in that there is a burden of proof but it rest with the trader not the Department.

Red diesel offences are particularly unique in English law in that there is no appeal process.

Guy

[Bob696]

that there is a burden of proof but it rest with the trader

Guilty until proven innocent then when goverments talk about money. Nuff said.  :shock:

Red diesel offences are particularly unique in English law in that there is no appeal process.

Just like having your car siezed for being suspected of 'smuggling' duty paid beer/wine/tobbaco into the country?

Edit> A thought just occored to me (my head hurts now), given the 2 above quotes, does that mean people who are even suspected of using red diesel on the roads are just guilty. End of story. No chance even to prove their innocense?
Makes me wonder if HMC&E wasnt thought up by Saddam or the KGB.

[Xtremeteam]

whats the script with runnin ur motor on old cooking oil as i live next door to a chippy,or is it better to just buy it fresh?how do you mix it etc & will a tdi go ok?

[muddyweb]

There was a short discussion about it here :

http://forums.mud-club.com/viewtopic.php?t=2037

Tax & Duty aside, one of the main issues with any diesel system is the lubrication that is provided by the fuel, so you need to be a little bit careful about the ratio of oil - diesel, etc.    You also need to preheat some oils to make them work properly in an engine.

[Bob696]

whats the script with runnin ur motor on old cooking oil as i live next door to a chippy

I am told that used works better (due to the lowered flash point of used oil) but you have to filter it really well before you use it. You should also notify HMC&E so you can pay the duty on it dont forget.

[tenpolequint]

I thought this biodiesel was just a gimmick but if vehicles can run on these oils maybe it would be a solution to the rising price of crude oil and the fact that it will run out.
I think the duty on fuel is too high in this country and if everyone is able to use a cheap alternative then I don't think people will willing declare the extra duty to be charged. This will mean the governments of europe will need to put up taxes to replace the lost revenue.

[muddyweb]

Not a gimmick at all,  there was a major trial a few years back using Rape Oil as fuel, and it was very sucessful.

[tenpolequint]

Great for the farmers round my way then. Many fields are filled with lovely yellow. I like the smell of the fields but the other half doesn't. I think alot of the rapeseed was genetical modified.

[hobbit]

Great for the farmers round my way then. Many fields are filled with lovely yellow. I like the smell of the fields but the other half doesn't. I think alot of the rapeseed was genetical modified.

Does it mean they run better in hybrid landys then :)

[tenpolequint]

Thats 90% of them isn't it

[Guy90]

Bob,

With red diesel. If it is found in your tank or fuel supply then you are guilty of the offence. It is an absolute offence. Even if you did not put the fuel in ot even if you were unaware it was there, the law says you should have known.

This law has been in place since 1973.

Incidentally we are a department of state of Her Majesty's Goverment. As such we enforce the law as it is enabled by act of Parliment. In turn Parliment is constituted of democratically elected members who debate and vote on said acts. Those that acheive a majority vote in favour become law.

I can't see the comparison between the KGB/Saddam Hussein and HM Customs myself :?  :?


Guy

[Bob696]

If it is found in your tank or fuel supply then you are guilty of the offence.

(Not strictly true, you must be on the public highway)

Ok I can accept that BUT even a murderer who is seen doing the act is allowed a trial by jury. AND there are other situations where you might not know it is there and have no resonable grounds to know it is there.

The merest suspsion it has been on the road and you loose the vehicle.

What constitutes "suspicion". An irrate naibour? Tracks out of the farm yard? HMC&E official in a bad mood and dosnt like the way he was spoken to?

 we are a department of state of Her Majesty's Goverment. As such we enforce the law as it is enabled by act of Parliment. In turn Parliment is constituted of democratically elected members who debate and vote on said acts. Those that acheive a majority vote in favour become law.

They also passed laws on speed cameras and using mobile phones in a moving car BUT the police still have to prove the offence occured. HMC&E do not.

I can't see the comparison between the KGB/Saddam Hussein and HM Customs myself

HMC&E do not have to prove anything to take punative mesures against a person, just be suspicious/have a wim/be in a bad mood and there is no come back.

The Lindsey case (more) was important in that it established a number of new points. Firstly it noted that confiscating a car was disproportionate to the nature of the crime. It also established that the Courts have no legal power to force C&E to give a vehicle back or pay compensation, only to review its decision again.

From The Law Gazete

Must be nice not to be accountable to the law  :shock:

[tenpolequint]

Big Brother

[Manicminer]

Mr Diesel who first designed the engine that burns this type of fuel only had peanut oil in the very begining.
 It was a few years afterwards that derv got put in them and found to work something similar, and easier to produce/refine in quantity.

[clouseau]

Nice one Guy,

I'm curious though, am I not correct in thinking that the dye used can stay in the fuel system for some time after use. If so are there any defenses in law for having purchased a vehicle that contains the contaminates without previous knowledge and whats the likelyhood of that happening. - just wondering  

[Guy90]

Bill,

The dye can stay in for ages. You need to change filters etc to do what you can to get rid on it (although it can be detected at the injectors). As I say though there are other indicators we use (which I won't tell you) to show rebated fuel. This is because the dye can be removed (I won't say how).

This area is a real quirk of the law in that it is an absolute offence. Even if you didn't put it there or even knew about it you are the guilty party for taking it on the public road.

There is no defence for having it in a vehicle because the previous owner put it in. However it is likely you would have diluted it with normal diesel and therefore show that you are not a current user. Oftern you would be fined in that circumstance and not loose the motor (particularly if you did the right thing and told us where you got the motor from). The main defence is really one of conspiracy by a third party. For example a garage offering a free tank of fuel with every service and filling it with red unbeknown to the customer or, as has happened, tanker drivers for the big companies divert their lorries to an associate who off loads the real diesel (to make it go further they then dliute with kerosene) and the driver turns up at Tesco or wherever with a lorry full of red or diesel/kerosene mix and that goes in to the unsuspectly supermarket pumps.

However we now find that rebated fuel fraud has moved away from the individual seeing what he can get away with and towards large criminal gangs operating massive fuel frauds with end users being haulage companies/coach companies/private hire firms etc looking for a regular supply of diesel a few pence cheaper than the forecourt. Fuel smuggling is now massive (particularly over the Irish land border and both repulican and loyalist paramilitaries are working this scam. Once it funded guns now it makes them rich.

Incidentally the money from booze smuggling finds its way into international terrorism.

Guy

[rokcrawlin]

The other little thing that is forgotten is that not only can the customs and excise seize the vehicle, but they can go for the back duty for as long as you owned the vehicle and will investigate other tax issues,  :D

[Guy90]

The other little thing that is forgotten is that not only can the customs and excise seize the vehicle, but they can go for the back duty for as long as you owned the vehicle and will investigate other tax issues,  :D

Yep. See you in the morning :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:

Guy