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A crushing blow
Bulli:
Im not sure where the comparison between the communists and the Nazis leads or comes from. The two are separated by vast differences of ideology.(both are too extreme for me but in different directions)
Do you feel worried about recent events ? Do you now find yourself thinking maybe the right wing are right? Then that is a move towards the Nazi point of view.
Shame on anyone who thinks like that.
That was what the Nazis stood for and i have looked everywhere and can find no reference to the German Nazi government giving more powers to Police to remove property.
The atrocities commited within Germany and the occupied countries were carried out by the military or the police supervised by the military...not just the police.Neither did they start by making things illegal for the ENTIRE populace. To use this as a reference is just showing you have a weak argument and simply clouds the issue.Or that you really are paranoid.
Whilst driving into work yesterday i heard 2 adverts for the dvla computer telling me if i didnt have tax they knew who i was, where i live and will eventually crush my car. So wheres the problem its clearly made public . Abide by the rules or face the consequences. It doesnt take away rights of appeal or any freedoms it simplifies the system to deal with people who would otherwise get off scott free and about time too.
Bob696:
--- Quote from: "Skibum346" ---
--- Quote from: "Bob696" ---Of course if you believe that the good of the many out ways the good of the few (just as the communists and the Nazis did) then this law is an ideal solution and trust is not an issue. The chances of you being one of the few is remote after all.
--- End quote ---
:?
Not sure what that means.
--- End quote ---
Kudos to you. It takes a big man to admit that they don't understand the root of an argument that have taken such an active part in. Respect as the yoofs would say.
--- Quote ---That was what the Nazis stood for and i have looked everywhere and can find no reference to the German Nazi government giving more powers to Police to remove property.
--- End quote ---
I never said they did . Reread my post and you will see I was referring to ideologies not actions. Both think the 'state' (and hence the public majority) and its well being is more important than the individual.
But to answer your point here is a quote for you
--- Quote ---Chancellor Hitler caused the German President in 1933 to issue an emergency decree which suspended until further notice several sections of the constitution. The decree declared it a criminal act to provoke or incite an act contrary to public welfare. The Decree eliminated freedom of the person ....................... the right to privacy in mail and telephones, and the warrant and due process requirements for searches and seizures of private property.
--- End quote ---
Nazi Justiz: Law of the Holocaust (Praeger Publishers: 1995) page 44-45
--- Quote ---The atrocities committed within Germany and the occupied countries were carried out by the military or the police supervised by the military...not just the police. Neither did they start by making things illegal for the ENTIRE populace.
--- End quote ---
Although your point is of no relevance to the argument I would just like to point out that the Gestapo were not part of the military (as far as I am aware) but a completely separate police type force. In no way could they be viewed as military or even para military.
--- Quote ---To use this as a reference is just showing you have a weak argument and simply clouds the issue. Or that you really are paranoid.
--- End quote ---
Whereas your post has shown you have not understood my posts nor do you understand history and you lack the imagination to take facts and extrapolate consequences from those facts.
Terminus
Yes the jury system is flawed EVERY system is flawed. However, in your favored system if an individual makes a flawed judgment it has a much greater impact on the outcome. If the policeman on the spot for instance decides you are guilty then all parties that get involved after that will simply assume guilt and the 'accused' then has to prove his innocence which is contrary to the way the law works in this country.
Lets look at an example of the 'safeguards' currently in place for a similar on the spot fine system.
If you are clocked speeding by a camera you are required to pay a fine (£40-£60) and receive 3 points on your license. The road conditions time of day do not matter and neither does the degree to which you broke the speed limit (up to a certain extent, twice the speed limit?). If you opt to go to magistrates court you will almost certainly receive 6 points and a several hundred pounds fine. It is straight forward, you broke the law, you pay the fine. However, there is no 'give' in the system. If somebody fitted over sized tires to his landy (say me for instance) and for a brief second I forgot to allow the 10-12% variation on the speedo and I get my photo taken. Yes, I broke the law but even given I have a completely clean license am I likely to got o magistrates and ask for a bit of understanding? Am I hell. Produce photo, wasting the courts time, 6 points, £300 fine.
Mr Little Chav blasts through a 30 at 50 and gets a £40 fine and 3 points (assuming he bothered to register the car to himself in the first place).
Its the law but it isn’t justice.
--- Quote ---Edit - enough with the Nazi's already, its not comparable to the topic - it's melodrama. Do you when you cut your finger start saying oh my god I'm going to die it'll get infected and I'll get blood poisoning and that’s my life over?
--- End quote ---
It is comparable (I could talk about Pinochet or Pol Pot or any number of others if you prefer). Remember that Hitler was elected by the will of the people because he made the right noises and promised quick solutions to social and economic problems. What I have seen through this thread is people clamoring for quick solutions to noisy mini motos and motox bikes, hang the implications and possible consequences. VERY similar to the German people of 1932 (electing Hitler) or the Italian people of 1921 when the elected Mussolini to power. It is the same thought process, the worrying thing is that we already have the government that is prepared to give it to them.
Not being able to see the possibilities simply shows a lack of imagination. Seeing the possibilities but believing they could never happen is foolish
Terminus:
--- Quote from: "Bob696" ---Lets look at an example of the 'safeguards' currently in place for a similar on the spot fine system.
If you are clocked speeding by a camera you are required to pay a fine (£40-£60) and receive 3 points on your license. The road conditions time of day do not matter and neither does the degree to which you broke the speed limit (up to a certain extent, twice the speed limit?). If you opt to go to magistrates court you will almost certainly receive 6 points and a several hundred pounds fine. It is straight forward, you broke the law, you pay the fine. However, there is no 'give' in the system. If somebody fitted over sized tires to his landy (say me for instance) and for a brief second I forgot to allow the 10-12% variation on the speedo and I get my photo taken. Yes, I broke the law but even given I have a completely clean license am I likely to got o magistrates and ask for a bit of understanding? Am I hell. Produce photo, wasting the courts time, 6 points, £300 fine.
--- End quote ---
That is the weakest arguemt you've put forward yet.. you're telling me you object to being caught just because you put on oversize tyres and you forgot? ..... I shan't go down the line of pointing out to you then that technically by law you're speedometer should read accurately ... so the fact you forgot it didn't is a very poor excuse.
Lets face it in the example you give it doesn't matter whether it was a young person zooming along or you forgetting because when someone has to tell Mrs Smith her child died because the driver was going too fast she won't care
I get the feeling your objection to the whole thing is more because you'll get caught and have no excuse than it's unfair :P
Edit - ah yes Hitlers initial legal changes were for minor legistalive changes such as the ones stopping mini moto's or illegal vehicles - a poor comparison used in desperation to over emphasise a weakening point :shock: :P
Bob696:
--- Quote ---you're telling me you object to being caught just because you put on oversize tyres and you forgot? ..... I shan't go down the line of pointing out to you then that technically by law you're speedometer should read accurately ... so the fact you forgot it didn't is a very poor excuse.
--- End quote ---
Actualy the point I was makeing was about justice rather than the law, sorry if it wasnt clear. In an ideal world then yes I should have been punished but to the same degree as Mr Chav? Would not something like a a simple fine with no points be a suitable punishment?
As I say its the law but isnt justice. When a society values the law more than justice then it has gone down the pan.
--- Quote ---a poor comparison used in desperation to over emphasise a weakening point
--- End quote ---
You do not say why it is a poor comparison yet acknowledge there are similarities :roll: It appears you cannot argue against the theory so you simply dismiss it as not relevant.
Would you prefer to compare it to the rise of Mussolini? Less emotive and but perhaps with greater similaraties to the current situation. Lesser party of a partnership, party leader that becomes defacto president (or just acts like it), scares the crap out of its people so that new laws can be introduced that favour the goverment. Gets involved in wars it cant win at the behest of the major part of the partnership.
--- Quote ---Not being able to see the possibilities simply shows a lack of imagination. Seeing the possibilities but believing they could never happen is foolish
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Study the past if you would define the future.
--- End quote ---
Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC)
--- Quote ---To make no mistakes is not in the power of man; but from their errors and mistakes the wise and good learn wisdom for the future.
--- End quote ---
Plutarch (46 AD - 120 AD)
Terminus:
--- Quote from: "Bob696" ---Actualy the point I was makeing was about justice rather than the law, sorry if it wasnt clear. In an ideal world then yes I should have been punished but to the same degree as Mr Chav? Would not something like a a simple fine with no points be a suitable punishment?
As I say its the law but isnt justice. When a society values the law more than justice then it has gone down the pan.
--- End quote ---
Ah I see you want the fine but not to accept the consequences of your actions? So it's more a case of ok I was speeding but why should I get points?
The results of speeding and other such things can often be catastrophic for someone elses life - but you want just a measly fine - thus the more money you have the less you care about speeding because you can afford it - thereby providing no protection for the public - genius!
Currently using a mobile phone is only a fine and as a result it is still all too prevalent - however in the not too distant future it will go to points and then watch the number of offenders drop - simply put points make people think about their actions - fines do not.
But then this is about responsibility - if you have it you are clearly not going to get points or your vehicle crushed - your pre-ambles into history to vindicate your point of view are not comparable because this is about a matter of responsibility an the law doing the best it can to protect the majority of the populous.
Now I see your point clearly you don't want to accept any responsibility so the law is unfair - it counts for all of us, we're not going to invade Poland and you are distorting serious issues in history to justify a paranoia that the law is out to get everyone.
I'm not about to respond in any further depth to your use of Hitler or Mussilini to argue against points or the crushing of a motor vehicle because they are ridiculous and highly over exagerated - its the old can't seem to get my point over try aligning it with something serious to make it stronger - but it doesn't
I imagine many who were affected or incarcerated by Hitlers ambition would be deeply proud to see such a serious matter reduced to a point of arguement for why you think a piece law is unfair - and that personal repsonsibility does not in fact have more to do with it.
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