Cones

[rollazuki]

Perhaps some sort of trial/vehicle test could be arranged?

for and against, see who gets stuck/rolls over/goes home crying  first....................





Men from the boys and all that.....

[Hightower]

see who gets stuck/rolls over/goes home crying  first....................

That'll be Turtle, Andy (from MK4x4) and either Jason or Guy110 ('cos they're always breaking stuff)
 :lol:

[Bulli]

Anyone want any spares??? I have loads of standard crap lying around....
here's my little disco...just so you know its real.BUt it is a very OLD photo , pre 3 link and lots of toys...

[Mace]

The issue, as it usually does, has turned to whether lifting your springs out of their seats provides any real benefit.  And on that, I think you are right in saying that there will never be a "right" answer.

its just allowing those people who fit cones in the thinking they may get extra traction from it see that fitting them primarily helps the spring back into place. ..let the debate continue I say!

Bulli,

looking at your signature, thats an impressive list of spares you have there - do you plan getting a vehicle to put them on ?

 

Muddyweb, spot on. There is no right answer. I made this comment last week - no one needs to prove anything as it's almost impossible to prove. And just to be pedantic, the need to lift your springs out of their seats can be avoided by fitting long travel springs in some cases, thus negating the need for cones. It doesn't avoid the fact that long travel suspension of any kind is there to keep your wheels closer to the ground. Correct?

Davidlandy, as usual you've missed the point   We all fit dislocation cones to put our springs back in when they have popped out, FACT. The question your side seem to avoid answering is WHY the spring popped out in the 1st place ? If your set up doesn't allow your suspension to travel further than the spring length then there's no need. In your case Dave there is no need as your springs are held in place with a pair of your wifes tights. I would hazard a guess that anyone who's springs do pop out have intentionally made alterations to allow their suspension to travel further. And why would they want to do that? Can someone give me the answer?

Bulli, what are gayspokes ?

I still cannot undertand why this causes such debate. In my mind keeping a wheel on the ground under 95% of circumstances must have a benefit (no matter how small) on traction or stability. We all do it different ways.

Has anyone given a thought to the guy who asked the question at the start of this thread. Bet he wished he'd never asked now :lol:

[TimM]

Has anyone given a thought to the guy who asked the question at the start of this thread. Bet he wished he'd never asked now

 :?

Has any one got pics of how dislocating cones fit. How they sit inside the spring and on the top. Basically how they are held in place. Cheers.

Had to look what the original question was  :oops:

I've just ordered a 2" lift kit from Paddocks, being a mechanical fool, it's booked into the garage next week to fit the lot, INCLUDING DIS/RE-LOCATION CONES, whether I need them or not.

Dave, if you are still having problems, let me know and I can:

a) ask the garage how they did it
b) take pictures for you
c) find out roughly how much it cost to fit them (or how much it would have cost if I hadn't been having all the rest done at the same time.

[Hightower]

I would hazard a guess that anyone who's springs do pop out have intentionally made alterations to allow their suspension to travel further.

The only alteration to my suspension was to fit OME springs and shocks giving me a 2" lift (allowing the larger tyres etc).  I still have my anti roll bars fitted otherwise I think my suspension would move alot move than it does now, so no intention to allow further travel.
My springs popped out just 'cos I am getting braver and doing things in the car that previously I didn't, resulting in taking articulation to the limits on the TD5 with anti roll bars fitted.

[Dave]

Tim thanks mate but while all this arguing as been going on i have got my hands on some metal and have a good idea of what to try
 Also i promise not to mention the subject at WW2  :roll:

[TimM]

Dave,

I've just signed for my package which contains (or it better anyway   ) the cones, if you are looking to make some, would you like any measurements or pictures before they go to the garage?

[davidlandy]

The issue, as it usually does, has turned to whether lifting your springs out of their seats provides any real benefit.  And on that, I think you are right in saying that there will never be a "right" answer.

its just allowing those people who fit cones in the thinking they may get extra traction from it see that fitting them primarily helps the spring back into place. ..let the debate continue I say!

Bulli,

looking at your signature, thats an impressive list of spares you have there - do you plan getting a vehicle to put them on ?

 

Davidlandy, as usual you've missed the point   We all fit dislocation cones to put our springs back in when they have popped out, FACT. The question your side seem to avoid answering is WHY the spring popped out in the 1st place ? If your set up doesn't allow your suspension to travel further than the spring length then there's no need. In your case Dave there is no need as your springs are held in place with a pair of your wifes tights. I would hazard a guess that anyone who's springs do pop out have intentionally made alterations to allow their suspension to travel further. And why would they want to do that? Can someone give me the answer?

Andy, (love the debate, u know me) , anyway, me missed the point, I dont think so young sir    the point I am making is as I have mentioned, the point of the cones is primarily to ensure that when your spring dislocates it goes back home, NOT to gain traction.

When you purchased your suspension system did you design and buy it with in mind that it would dislocate to give you traction or did you just happen to find out that your springs kept popping out and therefore bought cones to sort the problem?  like many others.

My set up is OME and if I let the axle drop the length of the shocker the spring still stays in situ. I didnt design it that way but I do have a completementry spring and shocker package. I didnt know whether my springs would pop out of not!, but if they did I was just gonna fit jubilee clips or my wifes best hosiery if some was availble - in fact whilst searching through her drawers I did find some suspenders which I thought may be useful, but they melted when I tried to weld them on as axle retining straps!

I would also ask the question on stability as to if a vehicle is less or more stable whether the wheel is dangling in the air, or when its on the floor under full articulation in a dislocated situation ? surely the vehicle can still rock with a similar effort until the spring locates again?   hhmmm....

       :D

[Mace]

Andy, (love the debate, u know me) ,the point of the cones is primarily to ensure that when your spring dislocates it goes back home, NOT to gain traction.

I have never dissagreed with this arguement Dave. As you've stated before, stick one under the tyre and it might help  :lol: . What I've always said is MY disclocation cones are there as part of a package to help me scrape the last ounce (if thats the right term) of traction out of my setup. It's this package thing (can't have one without the other) bit which is the point I inferred you missed.

When you purchased your suspension system did you design and buy it with in mind that it would dislocate to give you traction

YES I did. In fact I was given a pair of scorpion dislocation cones before I bought my spring shocks package.  :shock: Therefore my whole decision was based around the cones. Rightly or wrongly (we can't prove it either way) I want my wheels on the ground in the hope that some traction can be found. If I didn't have the cones I may have bought longer travel springs instead, but I didn't because I'd got the cones. AND as Hightower has said, the reason I bought my springs was ONLY to gain extra room under the arches for bigger tyres. I wasn't after more ground clearance. The spring issue aside, I bought +2" shocks (actually were +2.5" extra over the ones I removed) so I could get my axle to droop further and keep the wheels on the ground. The results were a laugh  :lol: 1st problem was my anti-roll bars restricted the articulation and made the need for cones or +2" shocks irrellevant. When I removed the ARB I found that I finally got the articulation I wanted, yippie I thought. Nope the b****y cones I'd been given didn't fit my springs very well and got jammed. Muddyweb and Datalas can probably remember laughing at me whilst helping to relocate my springs at www1 :?

My set up is OME and if I let the axle drop the length of the shocker the spring still stays in situ.

Again, I'll repeat myself. I have +1.5" springs on the back which are shorter than some long travel springs such as Scorpion ones which have extra coils in reserve under articulation. I'm sure we could get your 90 and my disco to articulate to the same height and your springs will still be in their seats and mine will have popped. I need cones, you don't.

I would also ask the question on stability as to if a vehicle is less or more stable whether the wheel is dangling in the air, or when its on the floor under full articulation in a dislocated situation ? surely the vehicle can still rock with a similar effort until the spring locates again?   hhmmm....

A very good question Dave, but the difference with the two set ups is one will have several inches of air to pass through before it hits the deck (possibly breaking a half shaft / bending a trailing arm, if you get it all wrong) the other will have a *period* of time when the shock absorber is actually working to slow down the rate of decent of the weight on that corner. It maybe slight but it's working. The only thing I'll say is, take the dislocating bit out of the equation. Longer springs will keep you on the floor too.

I've never said my set up is better than anyone elses. I've never said anyones elses set up doesn't work for them. All you anti extreme suspension chaps seem hell bent on telling those who choose to have cones, dislocating springs, long travel shocks, no anti-roll bars etc etc that they are mugs, wrong and need to be put in an assylum. Thats arrogance. No one has proven anything.

Dave. Finally, can I have any spare hosiery you're throwing out, I need some stockings to rob a bank so I can buy some ARB lockers. Like you I'd then be coneless  :lol:  :lol:

[Thrasher]

I've never said my set up is better than anyone elses. I've never said anyones elses set up doesn't work for them. All you anti extreme suspension chaps seem hell bent on telling those who choose to have cones, dislocating springs, long travel shocks, no anti-roll bars etc etc that they are mugs, wrong and need to be put in an assylum. Thats arrogance. No one has proven anything.

Remind next time I want to help someone save money, to shup up, or it might be seen as being arrogant.  :roll:

[Range Rover Blues]

Anyone want any spares??? I have loads of standard crap lying around....
here's my little disco...just so you know its real.BUt it is a very OLD photo , pre 3 link and lots of toys...

Me too.  I'm after a pair of anti-roll bars though......

[Dave]

Tim yes please to the measurements, pics. I have some pipe 115mm diameter which should be the right size to fit if i cut some slits in the tube then fold in to a point for the bottom and two bars to bolt the top. Just want some dry weather to get some jobs done.

[Xtremeteam]

As Ali G once said "Easy NOW"


im gonna go with the more common cheap method & say jubilee clips rock & disclocated springs to nothing more than get in the way,if you can afford to fit lockers etc why u arguing about dislocating springs [Edited],all you do is flick switch & drive,for those without lockers we have to concentrate on what we are doing,pick a line that our vehicle will cross with the minimum of damage to our vehicle & the terrain...

on all my 90's & the 110 i have +2 springs & shockies,if you flex it hgard enough they can come out,BUT if you use a jubilee clipx2 per rear spring,problem soved & £28 saved,

also in regards to neil being classed as arrogant,think thats a bit harsh eh..  



<runs for cover & picks maces toy's up>

[Bulli]

Trust me is you fit ARB's (lockers) you want as much articulation as possible it keeps the car more stable allowing you to make progress( imho)
I believe that you are better to keep the wheels on the ground, and mine is safe but not great on the road.
RRB sorry but never had anti roll bars, really dont want them either... rock and ROLL!

[Xtremeteam]

Trust me is you fit ARB's (lockers) you want as much articulation as possible it keeps the car more stable allowing you to make progress( imho)
I believe that you are better to keep the wheels on the ground, and mine is safe but not great on the road.
RRB sorry but never had anti roll bars, really dont want them either... rock and ROLL!

if thats the case if you watch hammer down 2 (american rock crawling) the ones with the silly articulation going for keeping the wheels on the ground are the ones that end upside down as the wheels stay still & the body moves waaaaay out due to the travel & then comes crashing down,all because it has so much articulation

[Bulli]

and i suppose they would be in an extreme rock crawling competition with NO articulation and anti roll bars...OH no they would be the nice sensible 4x4 they towed it to the event with...dont be silly!

[Xtremeteam]

right sod it,i challenge you to bring ur tricked up gee wizzz wagon uphere for a play at drumclog(landyman ash;you aswell) cos that WILL sort the men from the boys,I challenge yo to go up death valley & come out at the top unaided,
this is a site where dont matter what you got,its how you use it that counts

[Bulli]

hmmmm, i may take you up on that. Not that i think there is owt to prove i just like seeing different sites and its nice to make new friends.
 You do see my point though..those yanks dont often dislocate their springs but do have huge travel...infact most use coil overs which by their nature cannot dislocate.40+inch tyres are needed to negotiate the rocks they cross and they are following a preset course...hey if they roll they dont often care they just get on with it.
Death valley sounds nice i could do with getting a tan ..im guessing because of its name its dry and hot???Any piccies?
Are you coming south at all? Fife is a fair way for me ...hows about a lakes weekend? Ash is way further south ...poor lad

[Xtremeteam]

i do see your point,but u can also see mine that if you have lockers the fact the wheels of the ground due to a lack of articulation aint gonna be a problem,

dunno why its called death valley,theres one way in & one way out,(unless you fancy a 3 point turn)
its also wet as hell & a HUGE hole to get out off


BTW drumclog is just south of kilmarnock & is about 1 1/2 hour drive for me to get there,dont normally go much further than DC for offroading aloth i am planning on heading north for a wee trip over crimbo

[Bulli]

i know what you mean but looking at the phote that isnt going to prove either case. My lockers and tyres would be the deciding factor on a mud pitt like that . I find the extra travel makes it more stable and easier for me to predict....mine was standard once and there are times when waving a wheel is disconcerting.
Have a look at the travle in this shot. if i hadnt got the flex i would have 2 wheels airborn....a few of the other guys couldnt get through it...plus it means you can take it slowly and use the arbs to full effect without the body moving all over the place.

[Xtremeteam]

BTW the pic is one of the "easier" bits,

[Bulli]

the bottom photo is part of the extreme challenge at Kirton lindsay that i marchalled this summer...walked through that bit...but it wasnt one of the hard sections.

[Mace]

also in regards to neil being classed as arrogant,think thats a bit harsh eh..   <runs for cover & picks maces toy's up>

My toys are still in my pram, honest  :D

Apologies to Neil if you found my comment harsh, but it was in response to you telling the world that you could get a pair of trutrac LSD's for £350. The implication being that you knew something we didn't and you were mocking the rest of us if we paid out £500 per axle for any form of traction aid. I found that arrogant and said so.

Sorry Neil.

[datalas]

The implication being that you knew something we didn't and you were mocking the rest of us if we paid out £500 per axle for any form of traction aid. I found that arrogant and said so.

He possibly does, specifically where to get them from a lot cheaper..   Arrogance would be where he refused to pass on that bit of information when asked :)

[rollazuki]

if thats the case if you watch hammer down 2 (american rock crawling) the ones with the silly articulation going for keeping the wheels on the ground are the ones that end upside down as the wheels stay still & the body moves waaaaay out due to the travel & then comes crashing down,all because it has so much articulation

Dude, if youre gonna get all tech, then at least get it right.
Most Crawlers use coil over shocks, anything from 15 inch to 20 inch travel. These have the mains spring(possibly two to get dual rate) then a saggy ass assistor spring to keep the spring seats captive. his is probably no more than 10ft/lb, and there only to hold the main spring steady, they are mostly fullt compressed(ie flat) when the car has its weight on it.

The main spring may as well be classed as dislocating. Now if you think Landrover shocks with maybe 6-8 inch travel are a good thing then carry on, if you think that long travel shocks(lets face it, 10 inch minimum is a start) then you either need springs with a real slack rising rate for about 8 inches, or dislocators. Ill tell ya, fit 12 inch travel shocks and those landy springs look real short real soon.

The ones getting it right in the video, are the trucks with either good drivers, or a suspension set up that has its anti squat/dive well sorted, and doesnt turn into a bucking bronco at 75 degrees with plenty of skinny pedal.

Dont mean to come over all anal, but with some reasonable suspension travel, how do you propose to control your spring? I assume you agree we DO need suspension..........

As for a trip to Fife, jees mate, Id need a fortnight off work in the zook. :D

Hope to meet up some point and have a play, Anacondas and ARB's work in mud as well, just my dislocating suspension also works on ickle bumps :D  :D

[rollazuki]

Take into account that the good 'ole boys across the pond also use winches fore and aft, that arent for recovery, oh no, thay simply winch the axle up against the springs, reducing suspension droop.
When ya hit a steep climb, tuck the front axle up with the winch, helps stabilise the car, stops the front lifting on acceleration.
Get in a messy rock garden, slacken off the axle winches, and suddenly long travel suspension is back with all 4 wheels on the floor supplying drive and stability.


Damn it, Im moving to America! :D  :D