AuthorTopic: Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?  (Read 3751 times)

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Offline barny

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« on: September 13, 2006, 20:00:28 »
Help ! After owning the disco for about a month now and towing with it for the first time last weekend i need to find all of the potential problems and get them sorted - fast !

Symptoms are :-

Only one really, the turbo cuts in at around 2200rpm !

Once up and spinning it pulls ok, not exactly strongly mind, but ok. But the "lag" is very aparent, and often quite dangerous as it plods along before picking up speed.

Does anyone know of any common faults, and more importantly ways of fixing or repairing them ? Ideally i'd like to know of any problems that could arise, not necessarily concentrating on the above fault.

Hope you can help

B  :(

Offline Paul.K/LuckyTrucker

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2006, 20:37:20 »
Hi there, turbo lag is something you will have to live with. My 200tdi certainally pulls better between 2,000 and 3,000 rpm but it still pulls well below that. What they don't like are dirty fuel and air filters, I give mine a treat with a fuel addititve every couple of thousand miles and find it benefits from that.
The other usual problems are inner front wings, boot floor and leaking sun roofs. I nearly forgot dodgy manual g-boxes. Besides all that the Disco is the best car I have ever had, and I have had a few.
Best of luck  :wink:  :wink:
www.tv4x4.co.uk
Cheers LuckyTrucker

gords

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Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2006, 20:49:37 »
Remove the EGR valve, if it has one. That should make it respond slightly better at low revs - at least that was my personal experience!

Offline Budgie

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Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2006, 21:37:36 »
Check the intercooler pipes for delamination on the inside and give the intercooler a clean out.
Run some injector cleaner through the fuel system and, as said above, change the fuel and air filters. I would also look at the sedimentor on the inside of the chassis behind the offside rear shocker. Be careful with the plastic screw in the base of sedimentor though, they have a habbit of snapping off!!

It maybe worth going to a diesel specialist and getting the timing and fueling checked, both can effect the power output of the engine if not set correctly.

Offline SEDDEY

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2006, 22:43:19 »
When mine is cold it is a bit slug like but once up and running it pulls from the turbo at about 1800 to 2500/3000.

When towing, I have a avondale landranger, it seems to work just as well, possible a bit down on top end but fine where it matters.
My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely
200TDi discovery

Offline Porny

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Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2006, 10:55:42 »
Could be a number of things (some of them have already been mentioned):

Check all the intercooler hoses:
Delaminating could be one problem, but check for splits etc.
When you drive it, can you here a hissing sound?? - air escaping??

Fuelling (lift pump):
Unscrew the fuel filter and see if it is filled to the brim (engine off)
If not, it is a sign that your lift pump is not pumping the required amount of fuel... i.e. that it's gone weak.

Injector pump:
You may have a split diagram in the top of the injector pump or it has been set to the wrong position
To check this, (with engine off) remove the four screws from the anode on the top of the injector pump.
Mark the position of the diagram with a marker pen so that you can put it back in the same place, and then remove it by gently pulling upwards and check for splits.

If it is ok, then.... it may be at its minimum setting.

The diaphragm and cone controls the ratio between boost pressure and associated fuel delivered. A small pin (which controls fuel) slides against the side of the cone. As the diaphragm is pushed down, the pin slides inwards against slope of the cone and so more fuel gets delivered.

As you look at the profile of the cone, it has different slopes depending on which angle faces the pin. So depending on its rotation, you can set which slope faces the pin, and so which ratio of fuel to boost pressure is delivered.

Its max setting is the one that would cause the pin to move the most. I.e. so that the largest is facing towards the front of the engine. It's up to whether to set it to max or not, but I put it somewhere close ish (say 30 degrees from max). If the diagram has been assembled correctly there will be a dimple of the metal plate which should face towards the rad on the max setting.
Can do a pic if needed.

Related to the above...  Another possible cause.

Following the same process as above, remove the rubber diagram from the injector pump, and have a look down the inside of the pump where the shaft on the diaphragm sits…
You should be able to see the tip of a sliding pin (on the rad side of the pump)…

This pin (called the guide pin) controls the fuel regulation on and off boost…
Basically when boost pressure is created, the diaphragm is pushed down, which allows the pin to move out, which in turn increases the fuel supply.

It's known for this pin to get seized, which means that you only have off boost fuel settings… and power is dramatically reduced as the engine is running to lean.

This either means a rebuild, or may be worth spraying copious amount of WD40 down the shaft, and try and free the pin if it is seized.

To test to see if the pin is moving…
Remove the diaphragm and clean the section under the rubber diagram, (i.e. the operating profile), removing any marks, grease etc….
Then, smear fresh grease over its full length (don’t need loads, just a thin layer) and replace the diaphragm and top cap.
Go for a quick drive ensuring you get the turbo to produce boost pressure (vehicle needs to be driven as boost pressure is only produced under load)
Then, remove the diaphragm again and…. If the pin is moving correctly there will a witness mark in the grease along the length of the shaft… if no mark, then you know that the guide/operating pin is not moving.

Throttle Cable:
Another favorite... check the accelerator cable is adjusted correctly, as they have a habit of stretching or backing themselves off.
With the engine off, get someone to press the accelerator pedal to the floor, and check the lever on the injector pump gets to the 'maximum' stop, if not adjust as needed.

Boost Pipe:
Check the pipe that runs from the actuator on the turbo to the anode on the injector pump - it may be that this split or blocked (disconnect and blow through with an airline)

Boost pressure of the Turbo and checking the actuator:
Connect a Boost Gauge and go for a drive - try and find a longish hill and attack it flat out in 4th (or 3rd) and see what the maximum pressure is. It should be 1 bar or 15 psi (just over a bar which is 14.7psi) - if lower then adjust to suit. (1bar on a 300Tdi, 0.8 bar on a 200Tdi - though you can run 1 bar without a problem on a 200Tdi)

If pressures are lower than they should be, then you need to shorten the actuator until you reach the desired pressure.

However, even under lighter loads, with a boost gauge connected you should see pressure rises (though, unlike a petrol, you will never see a negative pressure).

Just to check everything isn’t seized though…

With a pair of molegrips attached to actuator arm (with engine off) you should be able to actuator arm towards the bulkhead.  It will have quite a bit of resistance, but will show if the wastegate has seized, or a fault in the actuator.

If you prefer, you could remove the little ‘C’ clip that holds the actuator arm onto the waste gate and move them both independently.

Engine Timing:
Does the engine struggle to start?? Or smoke when running.

To check....(engine off)

If you look on the front cover on the engine, you will see an inspection plate attached by three screws, remove this and you will see the pulley that drives the fuel injection pump.
If you look at this, you should see a timing hole. Turn the engine over with a bar (with a socket on the damper bolt) until this timing hole lines up with the timing hole in the timing cover behind the pulley (use of a torch helps) - when it does insert an 8mm or 10mm drill bit (plain end first) - if you gently try turning the engine over now, it should be locked.

Once this is locked, go underneath the Land Rover (with a torch) and look up through the hole in the flywheel housing at the flywheel. If the timing is correct you should see a cut out in the flywheel. If it not there, try just turning the engine slightly either way with the bar (still with fuel pump locked) and look to see if you can see it. If the timing is correct it will be there.
If not.... remove the drill bit from the fuel injector pump and get somebody to turn the engine over with the bar until you can see it, to see how far out/and what your looking for.

Read this guide for some pics etc:
http://www.difflock.com/servicing/300tdi-timingbelt/index.shtml

Intercooler:
Get it leak checked or do it your self.
Easiest way is to bung one end, and pressurise the other (ideally between 1.5bar and 2bar) and then submerge in a tank of water - then look for bubbles.

Inlet Manifold:
Make sure the gasket is ok and not leaking.

Fuel Lines:
Check all the fuel lines for split, cracks, kinks etc etc.
Especially those on the feed side.

Might also be worth removing the pick up pipe out of the tank and checking the gauze (if fitted) is clean and the end of the pipe (and the whole pipe for that matter) is free from damage - also check the return is not blocked or damaged.

Fuel Cap:
Remove this when the engine is running (or just after) do you get a hiss of air??? - if so, fuel tank vent or vented cap may be blocked.


Ian
Buy me another drink - you're still ugly!

Land Rover Diesel Tuning and Diagnostic  http://www.irbdevelopments.com - Mud-Club Member Discount - pm for details!!!

Offline Cal

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2006, 11:10:35 »
Nice one Porny - that's given me a few more things to check as I reckon I'm running a little underpowered at the moment - I'm guessing on mine it is likely to be a small leak in the lines under the boot - a bit low revving at initial start up until you've pressed the accelerator and got the revs up - ie just driving away, and then at the first junction it will be fine again...

All good fun!  :D

Offline Horness

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2006, 12:30:43 »
WOW Porny  :shock:

That little lot should be part of the Workshop Library.

Nice one, Thanks.

Offline Cal

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2006, 12:40:33 »
Definitely - think that's the most comprehensive answer I've seen on any of the forums I use...  :)

Offline Mace

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2006, 14:00:09 »
Porny, can I just check something you have written above regarding the injector pump settings? If the offset cone face is facing the pin does this not reduce the the amount of fuel as the pin is pushed further in at lower boost rather than at MAX as you have suggested, or am I reading it incorrectly? I always thought (but I'm happy to be corrected) that it's the shallower face not the steeper face that allows the pin to come further out allowing more fuel through. Therefore turning the dot away from the pin increases fuel and power. Sorry if I've got this all wrong.
Mace

"What a waste! What a waste! But the world don't mind"

Discovery 300Tdi 3dr

Offline Porny

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Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2006, 14:50:10 »
Quote from: "Mace"
Porny, can I just check something you have written above regarding the injector pump settings? If the offset cone face is facing the pin does this not reduce the the amount of fuel as the pin is pushed further in at lower boost rather than at MAX as you have suggested, or am I reading it incorrectly? I always thought (but I'm happy to be corrected) that it's the shallower face not the steeper face that allows the pin to come further out allowing more fuel through. Therefore turning the dot away from the pin increases fuel and power. Sorry if I've got this all wrong.


Really naff drawing, but haven't got time to do a better one at the mo...

The dot on top of the diaphragm means absolutely nothing!!!  It depends where it was when some one assembles the diaphragm... you need to pull the whole thing out and look at the profile, not the dot.

What you want is the maximum movement of the pin....


Ian
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Offline Budgie

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Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2006, 15:17:21 »
Slightly better diagram take from Dodgeram.org.  :wink:



I think you're both saying the same thing in different words (if that makes sence?  :-k).
Basicly, the longer the pin the more fuel is delivered.

If the vehicle is fitted with the standard intercooler then I wouldn't go to full (max) fuel as it's just a waste. It won't all get burnt in the engine and just blow out the back as black smoke.
Normally LR set the diaphram to the minimum setting and a 90 degrees turn clockwise will do it for the standard intercooler. 180 degrees will take you to max fuel.  :wink:

Offline Mace

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2006, 15:20:16 »
Sorry Porny, your picture is correct as I see it. It was your wording that confused me (hence maybe others) Budgie has put me straight. The further out the pin goes the more fuel is delivered rather than the the most distance covered from start point to finish point.

Budgie, mine was a stock road going Disco when I got it and the top of the diaphram looked like it had never been off. Mine was assembled with the dot on the mininum mark but situated at 6 o'clock i.e already 90 degrees out. I 1st turned mine 90 degrees from this point and caused black fog for all those who followed. I quickly turned it back and it's now set at 95 deg from min. for most of the time and I turn it up another 5 or 10 degrees when I feel the need for speed. :-)  Still got standard intercooler too.
Mace

"What a waste! What a waste! But the world don't mind"

Discovery 300Tdi 3dr

Offline Mace

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2006, 15:40:23 »
Hey, what we need is for someone to fabricate an operating mechanism for turning the diaphram without taking the top off. Now there's a thought  :lol:  :lol: You could turn it up and down from inside the vehicle when you needed it.
Mace

"What a waste! What a waste! But the world don't mind"

Discovery 300Tdi 3dr

Offline Budgie

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Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2006, 17:18:06 »
Quote from: "Mace"
Budgie, mine was a stock road going Disco when I got it and the top of the diaphram looked like it had never been off. Mine was assembled with the dot on the mininum mark but situated at 6 o'clock i.e already 90 degrees out. I 1st turned mine 90 degrees from this point and caused black fog for all those who followed. I quickly turned it back and it's now set at 95 deg from min. for most of the time and I turn it up another 5 or 10 degrees when I feel the need for speed. :-)  Still got standard intercooler too.


As Porny said, you can't go on where the punch mark is on the diaphram. Mine was also set to minimum when I looked at it first and the punch mark was in the 12 o'clock position (viewed from the offside wing).
Even with the Allards intercooler fitted it's still only 130 degree (between 4 & 5 o'clock) from the minimum position and that's fine for me.  :wink:

Offline Porny

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Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2006, 17:53:08 »
Quote from: "Budgie"
If the vehicle is fitted with the standard intercooler then I wouldn't go to full (max) fuel as it's just a waste. It won't all get burnt in the engine and just blow out the back as black smoke.
Normally LR set the diaphram to the minimum setting and a 90 degrees turn clockwise will do it for the standard intercooler. 180 degrees will take you to max fuel.  :wink:


Really....

Both my current 300Tdi 90 and my previous 200Tdi ran the diaphragm at the max position.  Both put out a small amount of black smoke, nothing very major though... both also sailed through MOT's without a problem.
My 200Tdi did have the turbo boost wound up a bit though  :wink: but my 300Tdi is still relatively standard at the moment (not for long though... have a few plans for the turbo)

In saying that, I've know of 300Tdi's with big intercoolers that smoke too much with the diaphragm set to max.

To say you can't run it at max is a bit of a sweeping statement, as most of it comes down to the individual vehicle... covering things like the condition of the injectors, the set up of the rest of the pump, timing etc etc.

It's more of a case of suck it and see :wink:


Ian
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Offline Budgie

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Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2006, 19:25:37 »
Quote from: "Porny"

To say you can't run it at max is a bit of a sweeping statement, as most of it comes down to the individual vehicle... covering things like the condition of the injectors, the set up of the rest of the pump, timing etc etc.

It's more of a case of suck it and see :wink:


I didn't say you can't, I said:
Quote from: "Budgie"
If the vehicle is fitted with the standard intercooler then I wouldn't go to full (max) fuel as it's just a waste


I agree with the "suck it and see" thing though.
I've only done the intercooler and injector pump tweeks to date, I left the turbo alone. It has enough power for what I need, and that's a lot more than it had when I started.  :wink:

Offline barny

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2006, 19:34:00 »
Now thats the kinda reply i was after - Thank you so much, thats loads of things to go play with. Excellant !!!  :D

Offline Mace

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2006, 21:09:48 »
Quote from: "Budgie"
I agree with the "suck it and see" thing though.


Yep that's what I did. I should add to what I said above that the dot was at the minimum mark on the cylinder, I removed it to check 1st, so mine has been assembled correctly, therefore mine smoked like a trooper on max. Couldn't live with it like that.

Good thread reply tho Porny :-)
Mace

"What a waste! What a waste! But the world don't mind"

Discovery 300Tdi 3dr

Offline nishikigoi

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2006, 17:28:10 »
I found the main fuel adjustment near the fuel lines was enough to transform my Disco, only takes a few mins to do, did Jakes Disco in the woods with a chainsaw screwdriver and some BBQ tools :(bigshock):

I'm only in Slough...... 8)
'94 Toyota 4Runner 3.0 TDi

Due to cutbacks the light at the end of the tunnel has been extinguished.....


Offline Horness

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2006, 17:52:33 »
Quote
...chainsaw, screwdriver and some BBQ tools...


Now that's my kind of tool box!  :lol:

Offline Porny

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Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2006, 18:35:56 »
Quote from: "nishikigoi"
I found the main fuel adjustment near the fuel lines was enough to transform my Disco, only takes a few mins to do, did Jakes Disco in the woods with a chainsaw screwdriver and some BBQ tools :(bigshock):

I'm only in Slough...... 8)


Just watch EGT's if you do that......   :shock:


Ian
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Offline Jake

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Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2006, 22:40:23 »
Quote from: "nishikigoi"
I found the main fuel adjustment near the fuel lines was enough to transform my Disco, only takes a few mins to do, did Jakes Disco in the woods with a chainsaw screwdriver and some BBQ tools :(bigshock):

I'm only in Slough...... 8)


barny has been to a few Burnham Off Roaders events.
I'll have to introduce you to each other next time
 :D
Jake

Owner - Land Rover Discovery 2
Driver - Land Rover Defender 100" Trayback

Offline barny

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2006, 22:30:48 »
Aye and very good ones too ! Whens the next one Jake ?

Offline muddyjames

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2006, 22:00:20 »
back onto the topic.

would a blowing exhaust create power loss i a 300tdi engine? In my mot it said slight blowing of exhaust in 2 places and a mate today said his back box fell off his diesel astra and he had no power at all. new back box on and it is a different car now.

Just wondered about my disco and anyone elses snail disco!
Rover 620i 223,000 miles on the clock :)
1995 300tdi auto ES Disco. Big Green Giant

Most expensive item for a Disco is????? a round piece of paper stuck on the windscreen!

Offline barny

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2006, 23:21:08 »
Well had a go a few things mentioned, sorta workin through the list as it were ! Checked the diaphragm for splits and marked its location, and sure enough it was on the weakest setting. Turned it a few degrees, sort of between min and max setting and set of for a road test. Didnt feel any different and still no smoke. Came back and set it to max setting, then started checking other items like the boost pipe from pump to actuator - seams fine. Removed the turbo pipes to check for delaminating, seams soft but no signs of splitting/ delaminating, but may replace for something better in due course. Whilst turbo pipes were of i whipped the intercooler out and geve it a damn good cleaning, got all the cr4p out, checked for leaks and then gave it 50deg in the oven to dry it out ! SWMBO was quite cool with that idea !?? Checked for the fuel filter being half full but again ok. Had a look at the sedimentor, its deffo seen better days, in fact it looked at me and said "if you touch me, i'll break and really [throw it] you off "! I left that well alone for a second opinion, maybe even to by-pass it.

Went for second road test and noticed on start up a small puff of smoke ! Whislt driving no smoke noticed but a small improvement in torque, and a higher top speed achieved !

So a promising start, especially as i was quite disappointed in it performance, things are looking better !

Thanks guys, i'll report back after checking a few other things !

p.s Also noticed that my centre section is not happy, where it mated up to the new rear section the join between the to is very loose and out of shape. I want to try and remove the centre box and straight through it with some pipe from work.

p.p.s what are the downsides of higher EGT's ? And can someone explain what it all means and in relation to my problems .... please ?!!

Offline barny

Typical 300Tdi engine power problems ?
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2006, 22:54:27 »
bump .... :roll: